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DenFur shatters first year con record at over 2,000 attendees

Edited as of Wed 29 Aug 2018 - 06:35
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The fandom continues to show strong growth on the last weekend of August 2018. A weekend in which 5 furry conventions took place: Fur Affinity: United, Eurofurence, Camp Feral!, Indyfurcon, and DenFur. Of them the inaugural gathering in the state of Colorado has turned heads as it had shattered the first year attendance record of a furry convention at 2,086.

The first year attendance record was previously held by FurryPinas, a convention in the Philippines at 1,542 attendees, which acquired it just this last May making this year a strong startup for furry gatherings in general. Other conventions also had solid growth in attendance rates. Fur Affinity: United showing its first growth since their move out of the state of New Jersey. The number breakdowns for last weekend's cons can be seen below:


2017 Attendance

2018 Attendance

% Increase


Camp Feral!



























6,934 + [Feral]



Update 6/29: Story indicated previous record holder was Biggest Little Fur Con, was corrected to be FurryPinas. -Cirrus credited for correction.

Reestablishment of a lost convention

The main factor for such a strong first year was that DenFur replaced a popular convention that was lost due to very public disbanding of the prior Denver convention: Rocky Mountain Fur Con. At its last year of 2016 the gathering had an attendance rate of 1,677. Details of this convention’s closure can be found in our coverage here, but also in public media such as the Daily Beast which had utilized DogPatchPress and Flayrah as primary sources of information at the time this convention collapsed since the news for the factors behind its demise broke on those sites, covering both political and financial factors.

In essence the record setting pilot year attendance could technically be seen as a continuation of the Denver convention that proceeded it. More importantly, this strong showing for the replacement convention highlights that Denver area furries were ready to take the reigns and provide a gathering for the furs of the area without the involvement of some of those on RMFC staff that had ties with abhorrent ideologies.

At the end of the day, a major catastrophe was transformed into merely a speed bump, thanks to the dedication of the new staff to reestablish the furry foothold in Denver that had been lost. The spiritual successor to the convention lost before its time promises to continue on, and the healed wound has made the fandom stronger. A year and a half ago, the press said that fandom was falling apart. One late summer weekend has proven that nothing can be fur-ther from the truth.


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Additional Notes:

Eurofurance charity was translated from Euros (41.000) to US Dollars for consistency.

Could not find Camp Feral's numbers, but I suspect that attendance is greater than prior year.

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Correction: The previous first year attendance record was held by FurryPinas, a new convention in the Philippines which took place just this past May and had 1,542 attendees, making it the largest in Asia and currently 13th in the world.

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I'm not too surprised that the BLFC stat was incorrect. When I was writing it, it seemed unlikely to me that it could have held that record for so long.

I could have used other methods to try and find out if the stat was correct, but I figured if it was wrong someone would comment that it was wrong pretty quickly and it could be corrected at that time. It'd be the quickest method to get that data.

Thanks for the correction!

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According to a staff member friend of mine (Not mentioning who because this may be unofficial) but Camp Feral hit their membership cap of 215 this year - technically a decrease in attendance but no decrease in % capacity.

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Good for DenFur. I certainly hope they had the staff and infrastructure in place for that many attendees. It may sound like a great thing for a first year convention to go well over projected numbers, but trust me, it's stressfull and not much fun for the staff as they have to stretch resources beyond what was planned for. I'm really glad to see a new convention in that area with a hopefully completely fresh staff. One that will form a good relationship with their hotel so a minot bit of internet drama isn't enough to shut things down. Yes that means I feel the staff of RMFC didn't do enough in that area or they'd still be around.

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RMFC had plenty of good people involved, it was a community based con... some are with Denfur, but no Raiders were allowed on staff.

Some background:

The problem with RMFC wasn't the goers or all staff... it involved the top, the CEO and cronyism. That included collusion with Foxler. Foxler told the con that it would die if they didn't let his group go uncriticized.

This begins in 2016, when foxler did the stunt of holding part of the room block hostage, to great controversy (There was a public post from the con calling it grossly unfair, before they had to beg a bad actor to release rooms.) This set off a many-months-boiling problem.

Yet the con wouldn't act about being trolled because foxler was pals with the CEO... same guy who was *already* at odds with the public. The CEO had been "officially" asked to step down as chair, years earlier, due to a sex offender record. But behind the scenes, he retained the con's name and formal corporate power. The board/chair couldn't operate without him. It wasn't just him, but partner Scorch, the con board member and SovCit behind the threat letter they made to single out Deo, which broke this story to the public.

Deo was singled out for making one, general, January 2017 tweet directed to her friend referencing that week's high profile punching of Richard Spencer. (In other words, this was already a public topic people were making memes about, not something more.) That brought a threat of shooting. (Escalating from punching > shooting is unlawful, as Boozy Badger has posted.)

With closely coordinated timing, the con ALSO finally acted to try to reign in the Furry Raiders trolling:

At this time, before and after this week in January 2017, there were months of threats happening from unknown sources. (See chair's interview... which I would warn to take, in hindsight, as somewhat-uncommittal-though-cordial, and needing more context.)

So you can see that Deo's January 2017 tweet was NOT the spark of an incident, it came in the middle of a year of established trouble. Deo did NOT contact Denver police, or the hotel, interfering with the con. She contacted her out-of-state local police about a gun threat to her personally (they did nothing, it was another state and online with an unidentified source). She then passed her info to the con itself to help their security know what to do, getting no reply.

Months later, March 2017, Deo's tweet had been forgotten. By surprise, the con got notified of a security cost raise too close to the con starting date for comfort. They wanted SOMEONE to make an example of. Without having banned Foxler or instigators with him, they ended up sending her, a *nonattendee*, a bogus, threatening, self-damaging letter from a felon CEO who was already a source of bad PR.

The board knew a letter was going out but did not know the content. Big mistake.

When the letter published, I'm told that the board then wanted the CEO to finally step down. He refused, the board split and the chair threw in the towel. 12 hours after publication of the threat letter, the con announced closing.

Of course there's more factors, like Lamar's excellent work to point out tax difficulties - - but that's the necessary context for the mythologized, and inaccurate, scapegoating of Deo.

Myth recap:

Every con has problems that won't break it and may not be newsworthy - but this was an untenable, broken situation...

What we saw next, in May 2017, was completely unprovoked targeting of another con. This was retaliation by Foxler sympathizing altfur/neo-nazi trolls (who just happened to work with Richard Spencer's alt right dot com). We have screenshots of them planning it. Find the section under "The most damning link between white supremacists and alt-furries is Nathan Gate" - who admits trying to take down Califur:

Gate, the neo-nazi founder of the altfurry chat AND Richard Spencer's discord chat, was recorded calling Califur's hotel maliciously. I think this was a vengeful control message to say "you can't stop us" - and just because it was soon on the calendar after RMFC - and in So Cal where they had sympathizer members and other ties. And "for the lulz."

In August 2017, there was the Charlottesville nazi march (where Heather Heyer was murdered), attended by Gate and advertised by the altfurs. The time was right to publish thousands of pages of their hate filled chat logs - just like mainstream publication of Discord organizing by regular alt-righters.

In late 2017, Denfur had it's room block targeted. Like in 2016. - Hmm, who was already twice involved in doing such antics?

In Jan 2018, Discord swept out the alt-righters who used it to organize the Charlottesville nazi march - and the altfurs were swept out with them. This was no coincidence.

From March 2018, I have, unpublished, 30 screens of altfurs coordinating with Foxler and the admin of the Daily Stormer neo-nazi site for a failed stunt to bring Foxler to Richard Spencer events. Then the lead editor of the Daily Stormer posted support, showing they did collude.

This month at Denfur, security escorted Foxler out. (And there was a strong statement of Nazis being unwelcome by Eurofurence, a con in Germany where it's unlawful to spread hate - where such a statement is both congruent with their culture and has the most meaning.)

Look at that timeline, put 2 and 2 together, ask who's been maliciously sabotaging the fandom, and look at the fandom response.

Denfur's planning and the support of a community that had it's con growth cut short, carried out a super successful rebuild. Nazi furs fuck off, congrats and hugs all around.

2 Gryphon was on the wrong side of history about this, calling fandom "dead" and lending his platform and support to the Furry Raiders and their malicious friends. (There are commenters on Flayrah who have fallen into that sad trap. I see you in there. "Pulling a foxler" is what we call the "just curious" excuse about colluding inside these groups, BTW.)

2 Gryphon then tried to lead backlash about FurAffinity sweeping out some trash - often the same people banned from Discord for abuse. 2 came out as a member of the altfurs, and Eurofurence announced he wouldn't be on their stage - perhaps the last big con where he thought he was welcome on stage.

Today, a bogus SovCit-styled nuisance lawsuit, led by altfurs to retaliate at FurAffinity, got dismissed.

A last unpublished loose strand: a leader of Vanguard America (the hate group tied to Heather Heyer's murder in Charlottesville) was an Inkbunny user and fur con goer, but videos and other info have been kept private. If there's further info involved in law enforcement issues and left out for security I won't able to confirm or deny about it.

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Is this long post supposed to prove that drama was not responsible for the closure of RMFC?

Because all I see in the post is drama in copious amounts.

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I don't think anyone was claiming it wasn't a dramatic event.

Patch is just spelling out it all in case someone didn't want to go searching through all that history for themselves.

I chose not to retread that ground because it makes the whole "speedbump" thing stick more.

A lot of colluding, plotting, and effort was clearly done to harm the Denver area furry scene over some higher up's desire to retain power. And it seems that was in vein.

In fact I would argue the higher up is worse off for it, because they got left holding the bag of the debts affiliated with RMFC, and the more convention oriented staff were now allowed to start from scratch. If they had just resigned then they could have left their successors holding the bag.


Erph, America's kind of screwed ain't she?

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Mike Retriever is currently a member of the closed 300-account altfurry chat, colluding with an influx of neo-nazi users who are not furries, and using it to air grievances about "socialism" that he also posted to my site. ( They are non-responsive to the topic he was on - and I will not further take this off topic or engage them here, but you should know what's behind any false impartiality that may appear here.

The "law enforcement issues" note at the end of my post isn't an offhand comment.

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You can attribute to yourself 100% of the responsibility of me checking out the furry groups you frequently talk against. Your website reads like a political pamphlet version of The Sun. Hadn't it been for your repeated bashing of furries you dislike, I wouldn't have known anything about them.

I like to quote APA Vootie's (1976-1983) mission statement (the precursor to Fred's Rowrbrazzle & the Furry Fandom):

"You see, the whole point of Funny Animals Fandom (incorporating Funny Vegetables, Funny Minerals, and Funny Machines Fandoms) is that humans in general are too serious. They get puffed up and self-important, and full of this insatiable desire for Impact and Significance."

"Human characters are self-righteous, know all the answers, and are ready to enforce them on everyone else. We don't want all that seriousness here. There's already enough everywhere else."

Your activism is making furry fandom turn into a farce of itself, if farces were the opposite of funny.

Since you favor left-wing ideology (I'm a centrist myself), I would like to quote Stephen Fry too. He believes, like I do, that in this current climate, the worst enemy of the left, is the left itself. The brilliant left-leaning homosexual comedian I suppose is not left-leaning anymore now that he's against this type of 'us vs. them' propaganda:

"I'm standing next to someone with whom I have differences in terms of politics and all kinds of things precisely because I think all this has got to stop. This rage, resentment, hostility, intolerance. This 'with us or against us' certainty. [...] Neither on each side can hear a word that the other shrieks, and nor do they want to. While these armies and propagandists in the culture wars clash, down below in the enormous space between the two sides, the people of the world try to get on with their lives, alternately baffled, bored, and betrayed by the horrible noises and explosions that occur all around. I think it's time for this toxic, binary, zero-sum madness to stop, before we destroy ourselves."

I do not condone a felon being in charge of a convention. I do not condone Foxler's disrespect towards convention rules. I'm very much against cronyism too, that is something that has negatively affected the local furry convention as well.

In any case, your practices are first and foremost those of a political pundit, and much lower down the line those of a useful member of the fandom, as it stands right now. I have to balance out all your hatred for specific demographic groups somehow. You don't get to choose who is or isn't furry, if you read Nuka's extensive research you'll be reminded that a furry is anyone who enjoys animal anthropomorphics and identifies as such. I continue to read because of Fred's regular contributions to furry culture.

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Well fellas, it would certainly seem as if we live in a society

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I still can't wrap my head around why people still are of the belief that they just can't disagree with another's beliefs or statements without having to run off an unionize with people merely because they disagree with one person.

Seems like Alt-Furry started out as a white nationalist movement and then to expand made it a "I hate Deo/DogPatch" club. Which I suppose is easier than selling white nationalism, but just as a reminder to the people who joined it as a hate Deo/DogPatch club, its leadership is still very much of the mind that he's recruiting for white nationalism in the long run. Being pissed off at Deo or Dogpatch is merely the lure they've found effective.

Also it should be noted that Mr. Gilbert, alt-furry's leader, thought "Undertale" was degenerate innuendo when seen on a convention program and "somebody thing of the children". Instead of, you know, a Ursa Major winning video game about player agency and morality in their choices of interaction with people, which gained a very large fanbase in 2015.

I mean if that's not someone who's taking themselves a bit to seriously, I don't know what is. I don't know if I'd want to follow someone like that as the bastion of fandom culture, even if I loathed Patch I think that would be folly.

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I don't follow anyone in particular and I don't have a leader. I can tell you though, I have yet to find Nazi apologetics at a furry convention. I have found, however, Antifa apologetics and left-extremism propaganda abundantly.

If a fursuit with a confederate flag should not be allowed at a convention, virtue-signaling against Nazis or any other kind of political affiliation shouldn't either, and Dogpatch's / furry social justice warrior's neverending 'crusade' is vomit-inducing.

I can't wrap my head around politics being shoved into furry conventions of all places, while either parties only blame each other. We all lose.

I remember just a couple of years ago the most hated collective was diaper furs or cub furs. I continue to socialize with them. At least that hatred wasn't related to politics.

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When you join a group, you kind of should do research on the leadership of the group, particularly if the user-base is small and the group is relatively new. Joining without doing that research is going to implicate that you agree with the leadership about things, and while it may not be for the reasons people may insinuate, they're still going to do so.

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Nope, I don't believe in Guilt by Association (a fallacy). I will join any furry-related group with content that's interesting or amusing, no matter how shunned. Those "Alt-Furry" groups happen to have the funniest shit of any furry group I've been in so far, including racist & cripple jokes. You can call them "The Church of Satan" for all I care.

Ricky Gervais never apologized for his jokes, and he continues to be a successful comedian. Monty Python wouldn't have been accepted on the BBC with current political correctness applied. I can't imagine what your reaction would be to Blazing Saddles.

And again, this is in the context of a group you can leave if it displeases you. They aren't promoting ideology at furry conventions. They just hold ideas you disagree with, however inflammatory.

On the other hand, political propaganda being given at furry conventions, that is indoctrination and no laughing matter.

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You're assuming my ability to enjoy humor based on my disagreements of those you have associated with, which is humorous given you just called it a fallacy.

I think the issue is that while communism and nazism are both extreme view points, my assumption is that conventions crack down on the latter because it makes convention attendees that are of minority groups on edge, and the convention's goal is for everyone to enjoy themselves.

As I've seen the alts argue "we're on vacation" and yes, that is true. So maybe that's why they don't want a fursuiter dawning the confederate battle flag wandering the halls and disrupting an American POC's vacation opening up that old wound.

Where as communism kind of aims at everyone, for their betterment or determinant seems to be what's in debate. But at its worst interpretation, it screws over people equally. So if it seems they are treated unequally, it's because they aren't equal as political ideology.

Humor is a very personal thing, it's not objective. And I'll give you an example.

If a random stranger comes up and jokes about your eccentricities versus if your significant other does it in the same way can have a vastly different reaction simply because of the relationship built over time. The assumed intent from the one someone loves can be seen as coming from a place of love, where from the stranger it can appear to be coming from a place of viciousness.

Which is why the internet is a terrible place for 'close to home' humor, because everyone is literally a stranger to one another.

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Ultimately my mission statement is, Dogpatch's / SJWs & Furry Raider's / Alt-Right's supporters are purposefully making enemies of one another without actually listening to each other's concerns, and their constant back and forth is causing grief and frustration to anyone involved. I thought all this left-right furry nonsense would stay in the US but now it's gotten here to Europe as well.

You think DenFur wouldn't have preferred to have a smoother transition towards a different board of administrators / reorganization of staff? You think a moderate climate surrounding the whole issue wouldn't have helped?

Someone comes to you and says "Hey you. I hate black people and the Jews. Also, you're ugly and I don't want to see you." and your response is to punch them in the face?! What's wrong with you people? How do you pretend to uphold civility if you don't act in a civil manner yourselves?!

I don't know your particular stance on this but Dogpatch routinely promotes this kind of behavior, or telling people to "F*ck Off" with a badge, and this has to stop. You're not just playing for home, you're playing for the whole world, the whole furry fandom. Diversity. Tolerate diversity.

Follow the example of Daryl Davis if you will, a black person who fought successfully against KKK ideology by actually befriending KKK members. It's a more successful strategy if that's what you're aiming for. It's like you don't believe in civil discourse to solve problems, and you have to push an agenda, and push and push. I expect this of mainstream sources because they have power and money to gain, but there is nothing to gain by doing this in the fandom. You're all furries. You all belong to the furry fandom.

Have an interview with 2 The Ranting Gryphon for once. Not a back and forth YouTube contest, an honest respectful chat on Skype where you listen to each other, attentively. You should both be able to attend conventions. Maybe you can't both express your ideas at conventions, depending on what they are and the convention's rules, but you should be able to share the same space without threats or profanity.

It is a perfectly acceptable position to assert "I don't agree with you, and I think your ideas are wrong and don't deserve a platform at conventions, but I do not hate you and you're welcome to attend as long as you keep it civil".

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"You see, the whole point of Funny Animals Fandom (incorporating Funny Vegetables, Funny Minerals, and Funny Machines Fandoms) is that humans in general are too serious. They get puffed up and self-important, and full of this insatiable desire for Impact and Significance."

"Human characters are self-righteous, know all the answers, and are ready to enforce them on everyone else. We don't want all that seriousness here. There's already enough everywhere else."

Then starts with

Ultimately my mission statement is...

Sounds quite serious to me, people who don't take themselves too seriously don't make mission statements.


Someone comes to you and says "Hey you. I hate black people and the Jews. Also, you're ugly and I don't want to see you." and your response is to punch them in the face?! What's wrong with you people? How do you pretend to uphold civility if you don't act in a civil manner yourselves?!

I don't know your particular stance on this but Dogpatch routinely promotes this kind of behavior, or telling people to "F*ck Off" with a badge, and this has to stop. You're not just playing for home, you're playing for the whole world, the whole furry fandom. Diversity. Tolerate diversity.

It seems to me your first example is merely someone saying "f*ck of blacks/jews" but doing so in a politically correct manner (which I thought the Alt-Right was against?).

So I guess if we made badges that said "I hate Illinois Nazis" for MFF you'd have no issue with that, because hey, at least it isn't saying "F*ck off"?

Badge makers: I get credit for that one by the way, you're welcome.


Follow the example of Daryl Davis if you will, a black person who fought successfully against KKK ideology by actually befriending KKK members. It's a more successful strategy if that's what you're aiming for. It's like you don't believe in civil discourse to solve problems, and you have to push an agenda, and push and push. I expect this of mainstream sources because they have power and money to gain, but there is nothing to gain by doing this in the fandom. You're all furries. You all belong to the furry fandom.

Here's the thing about the case of Daryl Davis.

1) The KKK member didn't ask for a hug, Daryl just noted that he saw that this person could be brought out of the darkness was to respond with love instead of violence. This will not always work, it requires assessment.

2) The KKK member didn't ask for a hug, he didn't see his position as evil and so he didn't think he needed to be convinced to move away from the organization.

a) So isn't it quite interesting that we're being requested to show you love so that you can have an excuse to leave the group you're in? So do you know the group you are in is evil? If so why not leave of your own fruition instead of waiting for someone to hug you and give you an excuse? You can be a furry without being an Alt-Furry or an Anti-fa furry, you know that right? You don't have to wait for someone to hug you to figure that out.

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A) That's the mission statement in this whole discussion. I don't think about politics when I'm dancing in fursuit. Honestly I rather not think about politics at all, not in the furry fandom.

B) WHAT? I have an issue with badges that say "I hate (a collective)". Why do you need to hate certain collectives at a convention? Hate speech shouldn't happen at a convention.

Unless the badge is something like "I hate brussel sprouts". Or some joke, or self-deprecation. I love those "Furry Trash" badges.

C) I'm not familiar with Daryl Davis' case and really I just used it as an analogy to make a point. I can't vouch for anything you're saying about his experiences.

I don't have a special interest in fighting against white supremacy. ESPECIALLY not in a silly animals fandom. If you do though, I suggest you reassess your strategy to one that:

1.- Is actually effective. Dogpatch can denounce all the groups he wants but they keep popping up because people like them.

2.- Doesn't fuck up everyone else's day who's just trying to have a bit of enjoyment or learn about furry stuff. Yes, I get it, you don't like Nazis. I get it. Yes, I get it, thank you. You despise Nazis, yes, thank you. I get it. Yes, Nazis are bad, yes, thank you. Okay now you're being annoying.

3.- Doesn't have Dogpatch as a vocal representative because his 'journalism' / activism has gone beyond yellow. The quality of his written work is very poor. Not entirely related, you should check out his profile at Kiwi Farms, it's quite funny (if you like offensive humor). I grade the Kiwi Farms profile a B-

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Tl;dr: got redpilled, now "centrist" between antisemitic hate memes and n*gger jokes.

Take it from mike, it's too serious to not be racist. Listen to him if you think caring about things needs to get balanced with trolling and baiting and mocking mexican immigrants, like he was doing around 7pm PST down there in that little toilet of a chat, after linking this page to make sure the bait was set.

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Oh look, it's another leftist world-wide revered intellectual, NOAM CHOMSKY, who is AGAINST punching Nazis in the face!

Chomsky, a prominent voice on the left, has now voiced his frustrations with antifa, telling The Independent that physically preventing members of far-right groups from expressing their views is counter-productive.

“Unlike repression of the left, typically tolerated (even approved), repression of the right elicits great concern and sometimes support for the targets as they claim the high moral ground of ‘defending basic civil rights’,” he says. “That’s quite apart from the opportunity cost, the failure to use the opportunity to expose their doctrines and actions, and the threat they pose to civilised existence.”

Chomsky also argues the current manifestation of the anti-fascist movement should not be compared with earlier historical configurations, warning against conflating the current state of the far right in the US with the growth of fascism in Europe in the early twentieth century.

Why don't you quote Noam Chomsky here for an article Dogpatch, instead of fear-mongering Twitter screenshots?

Do you think Dalmy @Dalmy_Dog ("Twitter") is smarter than Noam Chomsky? How many books has Dalmy @Dalmy_Dog written on international politics? Anywhere close to 100? Oh, zero? Oh.

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Mike Retriever, Daryl Davising the altfurry chat (actual quotes):

"Do you agree those Mexicans who show athletic prowess in jumping over Trump's great wall should be allowed to apply for a citizenship?

The chances approach zero but are never zero

I'd love to see a single Mexican succeed in going over the wall each year

He'd have to go through a televised game of skills

American Gladiator, where the contestant is Mexican

Mines and tripwires

We leave the pieces for the next unlucky sod"

Ninja Warrior for the Mexican who managed to go over the wall"

Like a lengthy Cory Lewandowski "womp womp" with a neo nazi chiming in to double down.

You're 1000% full of shit, mike

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Yes Dogpatch, it's called shitposting. It's a f*cking joke. This existed before you discovered the Internet. It's funny within a comedic context. It's not funny in a news magazine. Pro tip: don't tell a racist joke in a place where racism isn't laughed at. I've also got loads of jokes laughing at gay people while being gay myself. Do you get offended at Bill Burr?

You're so blinded by repulsion you don't actively listen / read anymore.

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The furry fandom has Mexican people in it, Mike

One of them selflessly maintains my site from Mexico, mike

He's not laughing

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Then tell him NOT to visit Xanadu chat. Hey, you know what, it's like there are people in the furry fandom who DO like deprecating or self-deprecating humor! What do you plan to do, punch them ALL in the face one by one? Make a furry army of fist-punchers?

Anyway, I remind you you said:

[...] I will not further take this off topic or engage them here [...]

So take your hatred towards right-wing rhethoric back to your press website if you're going to keep going at it.

Querido mexicano, si no te gustan los chistes ofensivos, no te metas en un grupo con chistes ofensivos. Además lee Flayrah, que tiene noticias más imparciales que .
Fdo. Mike Retriever.

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Yup, I said I wasnt going to engage the other topic, and havent.

Since you don't want mexicans in the racist white people only furry fandom, keep doing what you do.

However readers who actually read the links I posted know none of them suggest punching you. What I've been telling friends is how sad and disappointed this makes me about who you used to be, or appeared to be.

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You are very disappointed in that I don't think the same you do or enjoy the same things you do. It's almost as if the Furry Fandom is a widely diverse subculture. Clear out your bafflement and read Chomsky's article.

Also, OFF TOPIC, people who enjoy dark humor are generally smarter and less prone to violence, studies indicate.

"Humor that treats sinister subjects like death, disease, deformity, handicap or warfare with bitter amusement and presents such tragic, distressing or morbid topics in humorous terms" —may have higher IQs, show lower aggression, and resist negative feelings more effectively than people who turn up their noses at it."

You could consider that as a feasible reason why I'm not disgusted by racist & cripple jokes, and don't feel like punching any Nazi any day. If you're trying to understand.

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I don't give a shit whether you think like me, or whether you think pineapple on pizza is actually a good idea and cons shouldn't have family friendly options.

What's sad is seeing a once pleasant person turn into a supporter of racist hate.

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By the way, mike, telling people not to visit your racist toilet of a chat is exactly what I've been doing. There's no need for you to say anything more to me, that says it all, no takebacks, it's what you asked for.

And, """"centrist"""" as you claim to be (liar liar, fur on fire) it's really droll that you won't get it through your little redpilled noggin that free speech and free association cuts both ways, and it's not just for *your* clique of racist friends. The fandom is in turn saying not to visit them. That's what "nazi furs fuck off" means.

Don't like it? Don't be it. I know you hate being wrong but there's no denying the actual nazi(tm) trash trying to come in, like termites in the house. No, we don't have to put up with your disingenuous ass. That seems to be constantly news to some who don't like news, so say it loud and often.

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I didn't expect my arguments to sway you. Maybe in 3 or 4 years you'll find a different scapegoat or furry group to despise, when you get tired of the left-right polarization nonsense.

There should be no sanctioned hateful profanity in a convention. I do not condone "____ F*ck Off" as an exception. You do.

And also like, really now, if you don't like certain chats, don't visit them or read about them anymore. Just like you can ignore Kiwi Farms or 4chan. if you keep paying attention to them despite your distaste it's eventually going to take a toll on your health.

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Here you go everybody! "There should be no sanctioned hateful profanity", yet, sanctioned racism, direct from the same source.

They call this talking out of both sides of your mouth. Having it both ways. Being a slimy, disingenuous liar with two faces.

Next comes the apologism. "They don't really mean it," the meaningless irony-for-irony sake that is about as different from the real thing as "ironically" eating a turd. It doesn't matter why. You still ate a turd.

And this isn't just doing it for self-pleasure, it's a performance to others - it's because other people don't want you to eat turds around them, so you do it to spite them, and maybe fool some poor naive target to take a bite.

This is a form of fetishism (more than the sexual meaning.)

At first, furries fetishized a genre and wanted to unleash it from a genre ghetto, or at least get more servings than a market was offering in the 1970's when furry comics were dwindled down to nothing. So it didn't matter if it was market-viable, DIY stuff served the apetite.

Then they fetishized each other - finding that fan gatherings helped encourage producing more of it, and they could feed each other.

But too much of a good thing can lead to losing your sense of taste and smell. So a tiny minority of poor fools have decided that turds count as food, too.

Now this tiny minority has forgotten that other people are part of this thing (including a lot of new ones, with broader demographic than the old days) and most of them don't like turds. But these "ironic" turd-eaters can't stop feeding - they need to stuff it all in. Now it's not fetishizing a genre, or the positive power of people in it - it's just fetishizing the symbols.

When you lose taste and smell like that, any symbol will do - furry ones or fascist ones, it's all the same.

But this isn't just symbolic. There are real people here who get harmed by the shit they spread. See my big post up top of thread, end of.

Mike, rejecting turds isn't "hate". No more than flushing your toilet is "hating" the waste in it. Or taking out the trash from your trash can at home. It's just what sane grown-ups do. Even babyfurs are doing this.

This fandom is growing up, just like they wanted in the 1970's when they took kids media to make it more diverse, and full-of-shit whining about it won't take it backwards.

This isn't about censoring or purifying or anything more than saying, stop shitting where we eat. Everybody poops, but when you want to inflict it on others, "nazi furs fuck off" is simply another way of saying, you don't have others consent. Don't fetishize like that at them. Dr. Freud wants you to know that dog-style poo eating and its semiotic equivalent is unwelcome by a group actually made of people. Please get some potty training about the bullshit you're bringing.

For the benefit of others who may want erudite perspective on why *this* fetishism is exceptionally apart from others - this can't be shared enough:

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I really do think you should read some Noam Chomsky instead of making your own fanfic about reality.

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AlL the LiBs WoRsHiP ChOmSky

What this says is red-pilled people only understand the world through what they hear on shitty youtube vids or hasty googling to find copypasta to throw at the wall, "debate me" has failed for you, and you really have nothing left to say for yourself.

You're no fucking Daryl Davis, mike, and the documentary about him self-criticizes what he does as "the retail strategy" that doesn't hold a candle to the wholesale strategy of going to the organizational roots. And I was truly heartbroken about what happened to you for about 30 seconds until rolling my eyes about how predictably clockwork these talking points all are.

And furthermore, Mike, let me wipe out some of your talking points before they happen.

I'll tell you a little story, since my Facebook link up there referenced indie music and racists trying to wedge in.

1993 or so, while I was eating up every proto-furry thing I could find, there was music too. CD's were in, tapes on the way out, but there were no ipods, just Walkmans I could use at my first job in a parking lot in the summer. So I would scrape up some sweaty bucks from that and hit the mall where they had beautiful, amazing, rare things in their tape cut-out bins, like the Mute Records catalog. There I found one of my forever favorite bands Nitzer Ebb.

This EBM music used symbols, yes, scary ones, like your new friends love, but not so artlessly. Yes it was full of angry shouting, and they had over driven machine gun synthesizers that sounded like war movie action scenes, but they didn't sing about hating jews or glorifying racist joking in winky memes representing the same shit your dumbest racist uncle spreads. It was actually subversive, they were exhorting you to sin, and find pleasure among each other (like at gay clubs where they played), and to positively release pent up aggression through dancing.

There was also the kind of band like Death In June who used that symbolic woo-woo shit as a gimmick to troll people, the are-they-or-aren't-they game, as if the symbolism was deep by itself. But it wasn't, it's like a dollar store magician cloak for a bit of cheap romanticism. Stupid band, shame they had at least a few tunes of cracking good music, even the shit that collabed with Skrewdriver, and yes I have their first album on my HD too (the non racist one before they split and the singer got fucked in the head and took the name himself.) Good thing there's plenty of goodness from others who don't need provocation to get you to notice it.

But shamefully, I bought into that woo-woo shit for a while, even up to the point where Jairus Khan was bringing a message to that music scene around 2014, when he got on stage and played a Dead Kennedys inspired video criticizing the band he was opening for with a message to Demand Better. Ballsy, punk, goodness.

He probably doesn't like me for the baloney both-sidesing and annoyance I gave him on forums, but you know, it eventually sunk in, through no further effort of his, because I saw what he was pissed about actually harming friends of mine. And now, you can hear it from me, and eventually, if you grow a little, it may sink in to you.

Basically I'm not some naif, Mike, not a tool or an ideologue, not even more than moderate on many topics, generally not even going as far as Jairus did. But I've been around the block, I know what this shit means, I know exactly what your next moves are, and if you want to school me on any of this, or on 1970's furry shit, or anything else, sit the fuck down and don't try to teach a fish how to swim.

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No, Patch, you don't get it. You're a liberal (Or a leftist? I can't tell anymore), and he's Noam Chomsky. He's leftist, he's world-wide revered, and he's your fucking dad, so you better listen when he tells you that wearing a badge telling someone to fuck off is counter-productive to something.

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I believe I went over this speech the Alt-Right like to refer to when quoting Chomsky. It doesn't paint a nice sunny picture of them:

When confrontation shifts to the arena of violence, it's the toughest and most brutal who win – and we know who that is. That's quite apart from the opportunity costs – the loss of the opportunity for education, organising, and serious and constructive activism.

Note the emphasis I put in there? You know what Noam Chomsky is saying right?

He's saying that the Left shouldn't bother with violence because they could better things (which a good amount of them are, getting out the vote, etc). But more importantly that the right wing is far more voracious at violence then the left.

They're the better psychos, the better killers, the ones who murder people better, the better sociopaths. Etc, etc.

He feels they are so far advanced in that territory from the left that it's not even worth the effort for the left to learn how to be blood thirsty psychopaths. It'd be like pairing up a vegan with Hannibal Lector in a fava bean and liver eating contest. Sure the vegan may get through quite a bit of fava beans, but when it comes to that liver, only Hannibal is going to dare go all the way.

And that group of violent psychopaths he is talking about? The Alt-Right, the thing that Alt-Furry is named after.

That's why if you join a group like that, you best be careful not to get eaten alive.

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So the advantages to using civil discussion instead of fearmongering / blocklists / threats / profanity pile up.

In that scenario, if you insist on having a fight against them, you'll bring your fists, while they're bragging about concealed carry. You ought to be smarter than that if only for self-preservation.

I believe any real attempt to make white supremacists out of furry fans (in any realistic ammount) would fail miserably. The cognitive dissonance would be so great, they would either stop being white supremacists, or they would stop being furry fans.

These tactics SJW furries are using are not only unnecessary but also counter-productive, and honestly very unpleasant, especially at a furry convention. Where I don't condone offensive jokes either.

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They're failing miserably NOW because we're telling them to fuck off, when RMFC died because they didn't in 2016 when this wasn't getting attention, you sad scraped-out jar of peanut butter

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Oh ho, is this a cross over episode?

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Well if a person is not capable of having a civil discussion, would you rather they curate their social networks in a matter better for them or to inevitably go into uncivil discussions?

I've been blocked by one person on Twitter which I had no prior contact with, while curious, it's not my business and I have plenty of other things I can focus on then wondering who's toes I stepped on or what doors are closed.

The fandom is large enough now where there are plenty of other windows to open if a door closes, as long as you don't obsess over the door and try to burn it down.

I certainly use different tactics when dealing with extremism than most, but I don't look down on those that practice self defense measures, just as most Republicans wouldn't think twice about other Republicans doing so. Being trained for all possibilities is better than focusing on one than hoping for the best.

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It would be excellent, very good enough, if these quarrels were kept to the internet, and in real life scenarios people behaved like normal civilized human beings. Like we did five or ten years ago.

This translates to: No death threats or punch threats in real life (all internet threats to be admitted a manifestation of personal anger but no actual danger). No going for people's jobs / livelihood / family & relatives / doxing. No hateful messages against people at conventions & no religious / political propaganda at conventions.

In general, being a 'normal', functioning member of society in real life. You are admitted to a convention if you behave like a functioning civilized member of society, regardless of political or religious affiliation.

If you hate black people, you are admitted to a convention if you behave like a functioning civilized member of society (that means no hate speach). If you hate Nazis, you are admitted to a convention if you behave like a functioning civilized member of society (that means no hate speach). If you hate _______, [...]

Please consider supporting my stance here.

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Now you're being more restrictive than most conventions, yeah?

I mean that means if someone drops the N-I-double-gah-er they should be banned from a convention?

So Jasonafex should be banned from conventions from using that word?

Now I'm sure there are some that would agree with that position, but I'm somehow doubtful that the Alt-Right would be in favor of it.

Signing a petition is a pretty activist request, you know, a political action.

So in honor of that, I hope you will consider signing mine:

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It depends, in what context would you say the word 'nigger'? You see, people who endorse political correctness tend to not take into account that there are several things that matter other than the word itself for it to be hate speech. Context matters.

If Jasonafex were to say 'nigger' in public as a form of prejudicial action against black people, and people complained, I would ask him to either stop doing it or leave the premises.

Is this an unheard-of radical idea? Is it not more civil than 'f*ck off' stickers?

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Right, and since the word is one directed at black people shouldn't they have at least some say, if not all, if they should say that word should be one that should be allowed public usage?

And that those that use that word, which has no utilitarian usage on God's green earth these days other then for people niggling that they should be able to say whatever they wish without any socio-political consequence. In other words their words should have no power... which kind of goes against why the American government is shackled from going after the words of her citizens.

However, the citizens themselves can dictate which words are and are not decent within a particular forum.

In that vein, it's ironic that those on the right argue that if they use that N-word with frequency it will no longer have any meaning. I would argue the word has already been long dead in decent society for a long time and only been dug up by etymological necrophiliacs who wish to make love to its dead corpse.

Forgive society if they find such interactions a bit off-putting. We tend to like living words.

And to say that utilizing a word whom's main purpose was to demean a group of human beings is more civil to use in public spaces than telling someone to in effect "leave me alone" or "Don't tread on me" in a less politically correct manner? That logic is so warped if you spoke them as a crew member of the Voyager you could have returned the star ship to the Alpha Quadrant in no time.

But you're still no hero.

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I don't know. Would these black people support abolishing the 'nigger' word entirely from convention premises with a civil petition supported by the signature of one or several linguists? Or would they make a violent display of power to abolish it?

As it stands, black people use the word 'nigger' publicly more than non-black people, so that point of view isn't entirely consistent.

I would wait for them to figure it out and call me back when they know the answer. Meanwhile, furry conventions are a place for furry-related stuff, not an ideological battlezone.

As it stands right now, 'nigger' is not always hate speech. Attendees should be welcomed based on whether their behavior is civil, not on what they personally believe.

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Just keep fucking that corpse man, just keep fucking it.

What POC are doing among themselves in the general public or in the privacy of their own homes is...

None. Of. Our. Fucking. Business.

Let me repeat that.

None. Of. Our. Fucking. Business.

But if a black man is in a room and hears a white man say it off hand, how are they supposed to assess they aren't using that to talk about them? They aren't going to take the time to assess if that white guy's usage is merely corpse fucking for academic purposes.

By the way in most business-professional environments, NO ONE is allowed to say that word. If a black employee is using it they will certainly get a call from HR to not use that pejorative in the workplace, if not outright "Papa John'd" depending on context.

I mean in this response you wanted to fuck that corpse so bad you forgot to address that on how fuck is a worse word, so I guess it's okay to say now...


By the way, this is the 69th comment of this article. Nice!... and fitting in a way.

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Yes, 'fuck' is another word that's not necessarily hating on people as is.

Business-professional environments self-censor themselves because they want to appeal to more customers so they'll acquire more money. There's no law you can't say 'nigger' in the workplace, at least there isn't here. Evidently that self-censorship is not the case everywhere, the record industry doesn't seem to operate like that. But more so this is in for-profit environments, a non-profit / not-for-profit business has no incentive to make money but simply provide a good / service.

I'm sorry you feel bad you have to read / hear words you don't like, but you shouldn't censor every kind of word or behavior you don't like. We live in a society with different opinions. If it only depended on me, there would be no drunk people at conventions.

You can send your opinion to black rappers who continue to validate the word 'nigger' in public spaces.

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I'm not censoring you, I'm just indicating that you're obsessing over a dead word in a very necrophiliac manner and some may find that disconcerting.

If anything I am censoring myself because I'm a decent human person who will gladly not use a word that highlights the differences in men in an egregious manner. It's not 'my word' to use and if the exchange to make up for the crap my ancestors did to others is to just not use that word so we can move the hell on and deal with society today. Then that price to pay is so minute that a micro-fur just jizzed in their pants somewhere.

You do you, as you're free to do, but don't blame others when they judge the content of your character for the words you choose to say and fight to wish to say with more frequency. Because words are merely a spoken version of ones judgement at the time, and those are the things being protected here by the right to free speech.

When you guilt people who self-censor for being pro-censorship, are you not indeed calling for censorship in your own way?

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This is all very beautiful and principles-based, but it isn't related to convention policy, where international crowds of all kinds gather for furry interests. I have south-american black co-workers who shout "Hey you, negro!" while having a chuckle.

Write your thoughts on a book and put it on sale. Send a copy to Kanye West. It's not a convention on etiquette. It's a convention on furry animals.

I know you're not censoring me, the editor of the website has common sense enough to let me express myself without beeping out the words you find offensive. I wasn't the one who brought up the word 'nigger'.

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And we end here upon the greatest of ironies.

A dog whom has chosen to surround themselves with nationalists makes a globalist plea surrounding a word that is no longer useful.

Yes, in America that word is considered, as you would define "Hate Speech". We are talking about an American convention here. You indicated that conventions should be able to ban on "Hate Speech". We are talking about a convention in Denver which is an American city.

Perhaps though we can make the best out of this situation since it doesn't apply that way to South Africa, as you claim. How about you fly out all the alt-furs to live there, then they can say the word all they want and be happy.

Before they died of boredom because no one cares they're saying that anymore.

Comments are historically moderated (minus the karma system) unless given extreme circumstances [or spam]. Those that are given editorial power, such as myself, do not have power over the comment section. That is given to a different group.

This has derailed at this point so I'll leave it here.

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You're just saying silly stuff now because your POV is not self-consistent. Furry conventions are not a love utopia. They're a gathering of animal anthro enthusiasts.

One would think if it's such an agreed upon view that 'nigger' is hate speech whatever the context in the US, there would be a law forbidding it. Then it would be as simple as contacting the authorities and getting the law offender arrested.

If furry SJWs would agree to keep all this victimhood nonsense to yourselves in the US, that would be great. But it's reached Europe. So I have a say in it.

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All people: "SJWs", "Nazis" and all in between choose to say what they wish to say and forge connections with people they choose based on what is said.

The U.S. government can enact no law to force people to interact or speak (thus the right to remain silent). So if a person doesn't want to interact with you based on their beliefs being incompatible that is their right as an individual.

You certainly do have a say in it, but your words are your own and it seems you want the U.S. to mold to your standard (including arresting people for saying the n-word?).

I don't believe anyone had asked the Eurofurance chair to write that letter, in fact I disagree with some of their wording.

Because I still don't believe, despite our current political discourse, that people respecting one another is a political stance. It just feels these days that people are making it one.

Probably the pejorative "you SJWs" doesn't help if one doesn't want to take something as respect of others into a politicized issue.

And then the chair their wouldn't have felt they needed to write the letter the way they did?

I'm just guessing here. The chair speaks for themselves.

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You tell me how to call people who want to mold speech everywhere to everyone's liking. It looks to me like they are 'warriors' for 'social justice' (e.g. you talked concerned about black people).

If you have a different term that makes sense, I'll take it. Deeply Concerned Individuals, DCI.

It's probably going to be mocked sooner or later anyway. Not that I'm mocking DCIs (those people who fit the description), I'm saying they are wrong.

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So you're saying if a black individual doesn't feel okay being called a prejorative that was used by ancestors of other races to mark dominion over their individuality then they are wrong to feel that way?

So then what about your feeling about their feeling, if feelings are incorrect because they are feelings then your feelings about their feelings has as much baring on fact as their feelings.

But you are both free to feel and express those feelings, and act on them to find happiness.

That is liberty, and I'm sorry you find that wrong.

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I'm assuming you are an adult individual, not a small kid. This scenario I talk about is a furry convention.

In the context of a convention of furry enthusiasts, where you may find art that is of adult nature and/or objectionable to your sensibilities, you may also find people who use the word 'nigger', 'faggot', or more coarse words, and so far as it is within civil discourse (context matters), it is not/should not be the convention's responsibility to police language.

Official endorsement of reiteraded "fuck off" message is not civil discourse.

I feel like I'm explaining human interactions to someone who's never had them before. Those are my feelings.

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Then your assessment is incorrect, but it's your right to have them.

Nazism has little to do with language, but actions that are allowed by the state that are considered 'civil' and 'lawful'. You know, like rounding up citizens the state deems unworthy and gassing them.

I think that's the reason some find arguing over words as silly. To those that are saying "fuck 'em" are saying it because they believe if those they are saying fuck off to were in power they assess they would use their power to literally murder people at the state level.

Which man, I think we can all agree that's no good, because furries would certainly be at the bottom of a government sanctioned "citizen of value" list.

Which is why I don't see it as a political statement. I mean, it's like wearing a badge that says "the sky is blue", "Grass is Green", "Nazis suck" all derive equal emotions.

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It is, however, a conjecture, that those you call 'alt-furry' or 'nazi furs' would gas people. They do not gas people.

Whereas it is not a conjecture but 100% factual, that saying 'fuck off' reiteratedly, in 2018, is not civil behavior.

The scenario I pose is a real scenario that is happening, right now. It is based on reality.

The scenario you imagine is a futuristic fictional dystopia. It is fiction.

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Adults on their own time say 'fuck off' if someone is agitating them, and is indeed civil behavior in some social circles. In addition civility is mainly a cultural thing and thus cannot be 100% factual in all circumstances.

In New York City, I heard that "Fuck Off" is basically how they say hello. That's not scientific of course.

I mean, if I go to a place that doesn't speak English I think, factually they would not be upset about anyone saying 'fuck off'.

Uncivil behavior is saying you'll go to a con and shoot someone, which did happen and isn't dystopian. So we can agree doing that is uncivil, correct?

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We can agree intent plays a role in using a word. 'Bitch' is a word that can be used, or not, with the intent to hate on someone. 'Nazi furs fuck off' is, beyond any doubt, in the given context, used to harass those deemed as Nazis.

The context, in this scenario, is the one that factually occured. It is an international furry convention in 2018. It is not New York City. It is not a single incident. It is not an internet shitposting forum. It is not speculative fiction.

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It also impacts me in no way what so ever, nor most of the people here reading this article.

That is the part where your own speculation comes into play. Because you're giving it more meaning than it has.

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It impacts no one who's willing to ignore it. It is nonetheless uncivil wearing the badge.

I see you throwing all these things to deter from the truth, or to justify the truth, but not to embrace the truth, which is that wearing a badge that says '(collective) fuck off' is not civil behavior.

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It's more civil than threating to shoot someone at a con, which is what gets cons closed.

It's also more civil than threatening to punch people in the face.

If anything this is a de-escalation of the situation from my assessment. Where you're claiming it is an escalation in incivility.

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I'm not saying it has anything to do with escalators.
I'm saying it's incivility.
As are your other examples.

These are all examples of incivil behavior not to be allowed at a convention.

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So do you believe the convention should be in the business of enforcing your definition of what is civil and what is not?

If so, do you believe in free speech or just civil speech?

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I don't believe conventions should enforce my definition of civility, or your definition of nazis. You can check a dictionary for them.

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You're assuming what I define as Nazi or not Nazi by other people's usage of the word.

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I assume you're living in an alternate reality.

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How much do you love the taste of your own asshole OMG STFU

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The funny thing about this comment is that the thread is so destroyed I don't know whom they're responding to.

But I agree with them either way. 5/5 stars!

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not to you

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Is it really your place to make up for what someone else did? Should a child finish off the jail time of the father if he dies before finishing his sentence?

"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
~John Stuart Mill~

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If and only if the child saw nothing wrong with their father's behavior and continues it should that be so. Which is why I am not.

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Don't waste time talking in circles with this withered brown apple core of a person. That's their game.

It's a game to them because nothing means anything, real people don't exist in their detached reality, and they want to refuse ownership or consequence for anything they do, meanwhile claiming entitlement to do it at you. Essentially like a telemarketer, spammer, nuisance trying to make you listen and stop you from hanging up the phone.

They have nothing to say, no meaning, they say so themselves while targeting people with reactionary knee jerk racist hate and pretending it's a joke. Hang it up and talk to un-fucked people.

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I had free time to spend, and if they are arguing in bad faith then that's on them.

But if anything if their game is to take over the world with their evil thoughts, I'm in essence wasting their time as well, because he's not going to change who I am.

And if he's not going to change either than it is just a waste on both ends, but it was both our choices to waste it.

But as noted the conversation has derivated from the successes of Denfur which was the article.

It is clear that some out there saw the speedbump in the one year hiatus as something more significant than it was. In the grand scheme of life, this whole thread will probably be seen as that.

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Wow, this whole socialist thing and politics is why I think this fandom is more of a nightmare and a cult in it's general core, and I think the idea that a fandom should just have a single "government" like rules will only hurt the fandom even more.

As for "I do not condone a felon being in charge of a convention.", this sounds very controversial and reminds me of stories where someone who was once convicted shall never have equality after time was served, and honestly as someone who believes in justice in equality, I find it morally wrong to treat someone like crap when they already served their time. One important fact is this: If fear gets surrounded because of something like that, or drama around it for example, the fear is the fault of those who fear.

Admitting I do not know exactly all the drama that is going on, I believe the fandom is a million times better if it's just divided now. Bashing other furries because of some bad past, or bashing them for some safe and legal personality because of whatever the hell it is, is the sole reason why problems continue to exist in the fandom.

And hearing the "furry fandom" being "socialist" cringes me and proves my main point about it's general core assuming that claim is true. I knew the fandom generally was closed minded, I think, but I didn't think that it would be THAT bad.
NOTE: I apologies if I'm completely missing the point. I'm not sure what side I'm on in this comment either. Wasn't too sure where to post my comment.

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Just to be clear for those reading the comment, you were responding to the comment below right?

The threading is a bit bunk, but it fits cause the conversation is a bit marginal.

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I replied to it mainly because of this one thing I tried to quote. Though I wasn't very sure about the other commentary I posted.

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As furry conventions grow larger and larger, do they have to have increasing use of "nigger", "faggot", "fuck off". "Nazi", and similar language in their vocabularies? Furry conventions are supposed to be places of fun; that doesn't sound like fun to me. Are long-running (and ever-growing) conventions like Anthrocon, Midwest FurFest, and Further Confusion reporting this?

Fred Patten

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I can only recommend rules preventing such words to people who own a furry convention to have such rules if they do not have it but only for maybe most conventions, but probably only if "normal" common business places do the same. No "special strict rules" crap because it's a "fandom" or because of how society in general likely reacts because of "fandom", especially "furry fandom".

Though as for those private sex rooms I remember hearing about, I certainly don't want the government or a government like thing to dictate that and I don't suggest recommendations. And for the "if you are an ex villain, you can't ever enter" thing, which is something I don't tolerate.

Anyway, I certainly believe furry conventions shouldn't be following some single order of beliefs unless it's something (e.g. open minded) that's good for everyone I think.

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I was hoping those who unapologetically agree with spreading 'fuck off' & 'nazis' messages, or are in contact with the people responsible, would be able to estimate how much profanity is increasing.

Anthrocon was the big one that's started having those "Nazis F*ck Off" badges this year. We'll see about MFF and Further Confusion.

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Nobody here is suggesting that the furry fandom have a government or that the furry fandom is socialist. I know your ability to follow a discussion kind of comes and goes but it seems like something you read made your train of thought go way off beyond what's actually being discussed here. Nobody can read your mind, man.

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I was probably reading some article that was linked here, and was replying to that with general thoughts with a commentary to one thing I've saw in a comment. Like I said I posted my note.

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Maybe you could have mercy on this trainwreck of a comment section and comment on the article you're actually replying to, instead?

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I wanted to respond to part of someone's comment too.

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I know your ability to follow a discussion kind of comes and goes

<3 <3 <3

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Yes they are. Dogpatch is saying furry fandom is socialist. He linked the article:

It's an example of why I said his website reads like a political pamphlet version of The Sun. (The Sun is a British tabloid: sensationalized stories, gossip, unapologetically biased political views, etc.)

With divisive inner activism like these, there's no need for outer mainstream media to bash on us.

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The article in question was written by Tempe O’Kun and Dralen Dragonfox, whom speak in the form of opinion (which the article is tagged as) and not as matter of fact. Patch's site doesn't have the ability to give contributors their own profile so he posted them as himself as a work around.

Of course the word opinion is in tiny font at the very bottom of the page, so when it comes to that it can be understandable why there is confusion as to who is saying the message and if it's being presented as fact or opinion.

Websites and news in general, including this one, should should always improve at discerning hard news from opinion pieces. Because I think that's why a lot of politicians can get away with pointing at a fact piece and claiming "well it's their opinion man and they're biased."

People have been trying to control the political dialog (or lack there of) of the fandom as a whole since its inception, with varying degrees of success. I grew up during the era of the Burned Furs, and unbeknownst to me at the time had interacted regularly with some people who were in that group.

During the "Digg" aggregated news area I was a regular member of which apparently was lead by a guy that was a member of a group called "Improved Anthroporphics" which many had noted was an spin off of the Burned Fur movement. I just like the idea of the site at the time, and avoided the personal politic of the leadership.

If socialism concerns you, you should also talk to 2 Gryphon, who if I recall voted for Bernie Sanders in the primary and Trump in the main election. In other words, was what we in the states called a "Bernie Bro". Someone who wanted to shake the Democrat establishment by voting for Bernie Standards to make the left wing more socialist, and in failing that, and the moderate democrat Hillary Clinton winning, just decided to take their anger out by voting for Trump.

AKA as soon as they didn't get the Socialism, went strait to the Authoritarian.

At least Venezuela got their socialist in there and had him die before the Authoritarian took over in their place. But perhaps it is better that we got the Authoritarian who is a bit bumbling and doesn't really know how to use the full weight of his office. Because I can assure that the U.S. is going to be taking a long look at what happened here and patching our government system in response to the exploit being utilized by black hat Social Engineers from Russia.

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Bad journalistic practices concern me. The article is partially written by Dogpatch, you can see he adds 'editor's note' now to articles. Also, he endorses publishing this kind of political banter. This is not good journalism.

Unlike Dogpatch, I am not a political pundit. I'm not as much concerned for politics, as I am for the furry fandom independently. You'll never see me publish a political statement on my website, nor publish an article that's blatantly partisan. Praising one side while demonizing another. The biggest casualty of this rubbish is the fandom itself.

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The fandom is apolitical, individual furs are not.

To sweep the political feelings of those individual furs under the rug is also not good journalism, because those political feelings exist.

When covering said topics I try and highlight what is and what is not, but they must always be politics INSIDE the fandom.

GreenReaper infamously tried to make an article that covered support of Healthcare and had like one tiny sentence on why furries should support it. It did not go over well and led to 3 articles in response to it.

So if you think this political thing just magically appeared out of no where, and this is the worse that it's been. Well, on Flayrah, that's not even true:

GreenReaper's Article about U.S. Healthcare decision:

Counter Article:

My article on calling for return to furry central content:

I was not an editor at this time, so I had no say in what got published and could only make an article indicating.

But calling the Nazi ideology abhorrent in my mind is not politics, it's fact. If there are people misusing the label then explaining them how that helps actual Nazis by expanding the number of people called it, thus the few avid real deal Nazis are able to act under a smoke screen of political confusion.

You? Probably not a Nazi, just wantes furry to be apolitical as a whole, and dislikes Patch O' Fur.

Gryphon? Probably not a Nazi, just wants furry to be apolitical as a whole, and dislikes Patch O' Fur.

Len Gilbert? Hell yes he's a Nazi. He wants the next generation to be warriors in his army to fight again degeneracy and had admitted as much in an interview with Kotherix. He wants to increase the partisan divides in the fandom (and America) to give more power to himself(and his ideology). Which is why he's so quick to accuse people like Deo and Dog Patch of doing the same.

Len is the leader of the group, and he's using you and Mr. Gryphon as tools to empower himself at the detriment of everyone else, and if you guys didn't fall for that Deo, DogPatch, would also lose the power you claim they cling to because there wouldn't be anyone for them to fight against. Or if they did continue on their crusade against you and Gryphon after you left people would be more willing to call them out for if they continued pursuing you both despite distancing yourselves from that leadership.

It's up to you to prove the content of the character of these leaders, and you have the power through your actions to create the environment you wish to seek. If you want to cover the fandom in an apolitical manner, you can shape that by leaving a group that is by its foundations, political. And watching how people behave as a result.

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You can factually see this kind of Dogpatch journalism is more divisive than those articles, affecting major conventions. Necessarily so. It demonizes one collective while praising another one. It's not a single article or incident. It's a systematically partisan editorial.

I don't have anything to prove, I like to read and write about furry culture. Not about socialism, or nazism, or what constitutes nazism. The subset of 'nazi furry culture' is absolutely blown out of proportion in that website.

It's up to you to prove the fights it's causing will be benefitial to the furry fandom. I've never seen such an active endorsement of segregation. I'm not joining or leaving groups I personally enjoy, to cater to your personal tastes, in this case about 'nazi' hatred instead of 'otherkin' hatred, or 'diaperfur' hatred, or whatever personal enemy you choose to have.

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You assume hatreds, which is quaint, annoyance a little, but hatred, no.

I'm just noting that the leader of the group you joined LIKEs Patch and Deo, because they are good boogie men to get men such as yourself to fall under his sway.

He's a man that wishes to further radicalize American Politic and create a situation where the fandom is dealing with this for a long time to come, and get worse instead of better.

So if your goal is to de-escalate the fandom political fighting, and you refuse to leave the alt-furry's site whose goal is to further that political fighting, then you better bring your A game to change the leadership in that organization.

And if you're having trouble with me, I doubt you're going to have much luck with Len, because I think his philosophy is not based on the best wishes of the fandom, but to radicalize the fandom for the purposes of extra-fandom political organizations.

If he increases the membership of Anti-fa from his rhetoric or of Alt-Furry, it matters to Len Gilbert not. Because both bring him on the course of having his violent political war fantasy into a reality.

If Patch is doing the same, then it's a reaction to Alt-Right beliefs in the fandom, and thus creates an involuntary symbiosis.

My theory is that, if it's not broken by those within the loop, then nothing short of Trump's impeachment is going to change the climate that currently exists. And I have a feeling a lot of people are going to be regretting some of the decisions they made in Trump's shadow when all is said and done.

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[...] nothing short of Trump's impeachment is going to change the climate that currently exists.

What's the opposite of thank you... Not thank you.

Not thank you, for bringing your political intent to the furry fandom. No one asked for it. No one wanted it. Now it's here. It's in furry journals. It's in social media. It's in major furry conventions.

Not thank you for promoting it, bringing it to Europe. Not thank you.

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If you feel that America is the cause of all of Europe's woes or that it's the only country being divided harshly in these politically turbulent times, I have one word for you:


So, I guess Not your welcome. America didn't cause that.

Your country is not immune to politics either, you simply like to play like it is because your countries politics isn't in the mainstream press, but I read everything even the things that are not mainstream.

So if you wish to continue your 'holier than America' ethnocentric attitudes that politics is an American disease and not a human one then I guess Not thank you.

By the way, Len Gilbert is an American, and you are allowing him to shape your politics, in Spain. They just so happen to be ones you agree with, so I guess that's why you're telling him Not not thank you.

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You know the best part about the Catalonia issue? I'd know all about it, I've been influenced by the controversy in the area I lived in, for years. (And there's no real threat of a civil war anytime soon.)

The best part about the Catalonia issue is. If I turn off the television. If I don't read the local newspaper. I don't hear about it.

If I go to a furry website to look for art, none of it is mentioned. If I speak with furry friends, we have nothing to say about it (unless we're actively trying to have a discussion on the subject). If I read furry news, there's no Catalonia controversy. If I go to Twitter, no furry account makes statements about it.

It makes everyone so much more happier in both Catalonia and the rest of the country. Politics are left behind when the subject matter that unites us is a hobby.

The worldwide furry fandom was like this, five years ago. Those times were awesome!

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5 years ago you didn't put yourself in an organization whose intent is to politically radicalize the fandom either, maybe that's the thing that changed.

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Told you, going in there was not a cause for this, it was a consequence. The things that changed was reading rubbish furry journalism.

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So did you seek the alt furry on your own or did they go seeking you? Did they initialize contact, following your engagement on Dog Patch?

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It came a point when I thought, "I can't continue reading this partisan horseshit anymore. Next time Dogpatch writes a left-leaning article, I'll do something about it."

Soon afterwards, Dogpatch publishes the article "Furry fandom is socialist". I feel mental regurgitation. I write a comment on it. He dismisses what I'm addressing.

I decide to join the Furry Raiders Telegram group, heavily publicized by Dogpatch himself. Maybe they say something he's not saying? I just checked their website and requested an invitation.

I enter, and it's a group where people can and do discuss and/or object about any subject imaginable that can be described in words. Sometimes about politics, maybe too much about politics. However, most appealing to me, is that they don't censor / sperg out / discourage controverted jokes, so it's like a portable furry 4chan. This possibility of course is anathema to Dogpatch's line of thinking.

Some users find it has a bigger purpose than this. Besides personal values, I think the most unanimous general sentiment in Furry Raiders goes along the lines of a chat 2 The Ranting Gryphon had there with a member, published in videoblog Bird Bawks #10:

"The Furry Fandom used to be a welcoming and inclusive place for people of all walks of life. It was our greatest strength, taking people who normally would never meet and forging friendships through anthropomorphism. Unfortunately, extremism and far-left ideology has polluted the fandom, bringing with it toxicity and division. If you aren't progressive enough, you're shunned, slandered, and targeted with hate.

This is where Alt-Furry comes in..."

[I think they changed their name? Previous Telegram group administrator told me he left because they were constantly changing groups, because disrupters kept visiting trying to break the group apart.]

"This is where Alt-Furry comes in. We remember the old spirit of the fandom. We remember a time where furries would set aside their personal politics and find common ground. Whether or not we can bring that back to the fandom remains to be seen, but it remains a glimmer of hope in these dark times."

I agree with that sentiment. I don't think Furry Raiders can achieve it if, (conditional if,) that's their true goal, because of all the garbage that's implied everywhere about the group "Furry Raiders".

In any case, I have never been afraid to engage in discourse, with any kinds of people, so long as they keep the conversation civil (shitposting is self-evident or pointed out as such). I haven't had done to me any of those horrible things nazis did in the 40s. Haven't been gassed, stripped of my possesions, had my life threatened, told I can't have mixed races relationships, or so on. Maybe I'm not foreign / hispanic enough for me to suffer those punishments.

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Quoting 2 Gryphon but complaining about toxicity
alt-right self assessment of being a hope for anything

Wew lad

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So if you think this political thing just magically appeared out of no where, and this is the worse that it's been. Well, on Flayrah, that's not even true:
GreenReaper's Article about U.S. Healthcare decision

In my defence, I was right! *grin*

In the end, the Republican candidate tried to do exactly what he promised, and it took three senators in his own party willing to vote against its leadership to block it. Unfortunately, one of them just left us. :-/

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I'm sorry, did you just try to explain to me what the UK's largest circulating tabloid is? Lol?

Anyway, I'm aware of Tempe O'Kun's perpetual confusion, earnest though it may be, over what socialism is, but Patch only linked it to link to a specific comment thread to make a point about your behavior, not to say here that the furry fandom is socialist, and I'm talking about this conversation, right here, the one Diamond Man is getting confused about.

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Excellent summary. Thank you for writing this. I've had to explain this in pieces on twitter, and it goes well with the massive collection of evidence showing who the bad actors have always been.

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So not only didn't RMFC have a good enough relationship with the hotel to avoid the last minute 'security fee', they had a set of bylaws that wouldn't let a board majority remove the board president/CEO. The room block thing was, once again an issue any convention should have been able to go to their hotel to solve. Better yet, take a look at what long running conventions are doing and emulate them. One room reservation per person, Convention registration required within 10 days of getting a room, or a non-refundable deposit all stop shenanigans like that. Not to mention, any con with a proper relationwhip with their hotel should be able to go to them and say "This person is not and will not be allowed to become a member of this convention, they've proven to be a troublemaker at other conventions, please cancel their reservation and let them know they aren't welcome on hotel property during the convention."

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This may be only of personal interest to me because I was deeply involved in both anime fandom and in furry fandom from their beginnings, but to the extent that RMFC was disbanded because of tax problems, this is very similar to why the first anime fan club, the Cartoon/Fantasy Organization, never incorporated itself as a not-for-profit organization in the 1980s.

When the C/FO “went big” around 1980, from a club in Los Angeles to a theoretically international anime club with chapters in many cities, the theory was that the anime fans in different cities would gather in local chapters – the C/FO-Los Angeles, the C/FO-New York, the C/FO-Denver, the C/FO-Chicago, the C/FO-Toronto, etc. – and we would coordinate through a central HQ to trade anime video tapes, exchange anime news, and so on. (This was in pre-home computer days; we corresponded by regular mail.) It was also assumed that we would incorporate as a not-for-profit organization for tax protection, personal protection of the club officers, etc. The tax protection was particularly important because we had chapters in both the U.S. and Canada.

But you can’t just say that you’re a not-for-profit organization. You have to be approved by the federal government. And there is bureaucracy. You have to send in reports every year to document that money collected by the organization (in the C/FO’s case, for blank video tapes to make anime copies for new chapters) wasn’t going to the officers’ personal profit.

This is where the C/FO broke down. It was a mostly-teenage anime fan club. The fans wanted to watch anime videos and discuss anime, not fill out bureaucratic paperwork. Most of the chapters refused to keep the records that the government required. So the club officers never dared to file for not-for-profit status.

If I understand correctly, the RMFC did file for not-for-profit status, was granted it, and then never bothered to send in the required followup paperwork; and it finally caught up with them. The RMFC certainly had other problems, but this was a serious one that might have been fatal on its own.

Fred Patten

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This failure to make annual non-profit reports, though worrying and irresponsible and reprehensible, was addressed and properly corrected before programming the last convention. It was NOT the cause for RMFC's closure, old RMFC staff have told me.

I would assume convention board members are well-grown adults and have certain expertise, or at least counseling, in regards to business management. Over here legislation is extremely clear, you have to file reports annually for non-profit status. They didn't read the legislation that's applied to them, and that was very stupid.

In any case, again, expenses were covered to repair that damage and reports were filed. The truth is more complex and interesting than any coverage done on Flayrah or by Dogpatch, who is biased by his own cronyistic politically-tinted glasses.

But what I see amongst honest working staff, is that they continue to have a tense climate amongs furries in the area that's detrimental to their social development. The problem doesn't go away by excluding people.

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RMFC was held hostage by bylaws written to make it undetachable from a CEO saddling the whole thing with the PR of a sex offender record, and his pal, a SovCit, who sabotaged everything with an absurdly damaging threat letter then refused an ultimatum to reorganize by the board

You're still 1000% full of shit, mike

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Your reply doesn't address Fred's assessment that not filing for non-profit status was a cause for RMFC's closure. This specific happening was NOT the cause. I have now addressed Fred's misunderstanding. Neither your 'journalistic' practices nor Flayrah's articles made this point clear.

I agree with you in that SovCits are kind of insane.

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I wasn't addressing fred, but I'm glad you can't contest being full of shit.

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The issue is that Ockham's razor indicates to me that the whole tax thing was not in order. Particularly since there were Sovereign Citizens at the helm of convention legal decisions.

If that is true (as evidenced by the letter to Deo it seems to be so), then the odds of them having the knowledge and knowhow to retain non-profit status in the bureaucratic means instead of making stuff up as they went along and it ended up biting them in the end sort is a very likely possibility.

Are the sources that tell you otherwise the Sov Cits? Because they believe they're right in most things simply because they see the way they perceive the law as accurate by default.

In the words of Regan, "Trust, but verify."

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I'd heard that in terms of security. Now looking it up, it's apparently a Russian proverb that Reagan was taught to better communicate with Russia.

"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
~John Stuart Mill~

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If the shoe fits, these days... given America is getting imprinted by Russia these days...

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It was not in order. It became in order. What I'm saying is that it wasn't responsible for the closure of RMFC. The issue was taken care of including changing to a for-profit company. They did not retain non-profit status. The RMFC staff who told me is not SovCit.

For-profit is not the solution I would have gone for. But having someone manage unfiled tax reports in a business that operates (though unreported) as a non-profit (thus having no gains), and then reinstate the business as a for-profit, is nowhere as expensive as a non-negotiable $44,000 expenditure in security costs.

Had I found a severely incompetent manager in charge of the convention I work for, I would have simply changed / rebranded to a different convention that's NOT non-profit BUT not-for-profit. Denfur defines itself as a Limited Liability Company. I don't know if they're not-for-profit.

I haven't verified any of this through multiple sources, I am not currently actively investigating.

I don't know the current status of RMFC as a business or if they declared for bankruptcy.

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Um... that number was $22,000 as originally state by Scortch...

How did that number double over time? Is that new number something being passed around your group?

Guess obsessive reverberation can cause warping in some cases. But some here are still freaking out over the loss of RMFC and what it means in some grand political scope or who was the cause of it, in the end it turns out, that in spite of the spin the world keeps turning and the fandom continues on.

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I read that wrong, it's $22,040

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Thanks for sharing that, it's the first I have seen of the email in question.

It checks out, but the one oddity is that there is a place for a Purchase Order number but no actual number. That could be explained in that it was a quote and not an agreement yet.

The name of the person sending it does check out though, as the officer in question apparently was in a quite horrific accident in the mid-2000s when he was on a police motor bike and was struck hard by a vehicle

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Okay, I did not understand correctly. Thanks for clearing that up for me on that point.

Fred Patten

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Non-profit or not, incororporating is something any group running a convention ought to do if just to limit liability for the board members. At that point it's either file for non-profit status or pay taxes on all funds that aren't used for business expenses which would probably take at least as much documentation as dealing with 501(c)7 (non-profit non-charitable) status. If you go for 501(c)3 there's a little more documentation required. In any case, you really ought to budget for the services of an accountant. The money spent is well spent knowing that things will be filed on time and correctly.

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I agree. Unless you have a furry accountant on board, you should hire an accountant.

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Infrastructure yes, staff no, but they made it work by being dedicated and pushing themselves hard. There's a lot to be said for being unwilling to accept failure.

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As one of the staff members for DenFur, I can safely say that the level of staff we had was suited for a con of around 850-900 people. Though it was celebrated when we smashed that number during Pre-Reg, it did not allow a lot of time to get new staff on board between close of Pre-Reg and con, so we had to do the best we can with the staff we had and the volunteers who showed up to help out.

As one of the Ops Directors, I'm immensely proud of the folks I worked with. Everyone sacrificed a lot of time and put their best efforts forward to make this the best first year anyone has ever seen. Considering the numbers that have been shared, I'm confident that this group was successful. :)

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That gave me a little tear dude, you did good!

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Good work out there, couldn't have been easy, I am good friends with one on your game room staff and I know they're happy to see a return of a convention he can contribute to.

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DenFur was basically replacing an old convention, so let's assume it's an anomaly. My question is then, how can cons possibly keep breaking this record? I mean, if you're starting a new convention, you can't plan accommodation and facilities for 1500 and only 200 show up. It's just not financially feasible. But if you've planned for 200, how can you accommodate 1500? I just don't understand the logistics. The size and type of venues is completely different for different size cons. Is there a pre-registration before setting a real date and venue?

"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
~John Stuart Mill~

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I would note that people shouldn't start furry conventions just to have the goal of holding a record, and they should be reflecting their accommodations toward their own educated estimates, not on previous record holdings.

If that is of concern about it being an unfair advantage bring in an area of a previous convention, then one could always separate it into "successor premier" and "geographical premier"

Where successor is a convention that starts in an area (20 square miles) where a convention used to be in the last 5 years and geographical would be an area that had no previous furry gathering in 20 square miles.

If one cared to differentiate the circumstances.

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Generally there is no pre-reg before a venue is already reserved. For a first year convention, projecting the attendance is usually a scientific half-assed guess. When MFF was started, we knew how many had been registering for the furry programming track at Duckon (a number of MFF's original staff had been staff at Duckon). We also had a good idea of how many we could call on to be staff in the area from various local events. We reserved a room block we were confident we could fill to the percentage required and budgeted for that number, but made provisions in case we got around 50% more. It's usually possible to increase a room block if needed as long as one isn't filling the hotel. As it turned out We got almost exactly that 50% more and things went fine.

As long as most of the attendees are using the roomblock, there's a fairly accurate constant to corrolate number of rooms reserved with the ultimate number of attendees so you'd have some warning if you got an unplanned for growth spurt, maybe in time to recruit some extra staff.

DenFur had the advantage of knowing how many had attended the last RMFC and planned accordingly and intelligently. You need to be conservative because blowing a room block comittment can kill a convention fast. On the other hand, the larger the room block, the better the deal once can get from the hotel. I know how it felt the first year of MFF planning. The first number everyone wanted to hear at staff meetings was how many room nights we'd filled and there was a collective sigh of relief when we hit the number we needed. That was still the case to a lesser degree for a few years after until we got enough numbers to make reasonably good predictions. The DeFur staff now has a good solid number to go by and I'd imagine adding staff will be high on their priority.

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Did you notice that Eurofurence has 42% of the weekend's attendance but 57% of the charity donations? Seems the North Americans were being a bit stingy.

"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
~John Stuart Mill~

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On one hand, shots fired, man.

On the other hand, Jesus Christ, Rakuen, if you're looking to start a fight, I mean, there's one RIGHT FUCKING THERE, so you could just start swinging, you know.

And on the gripping hand ... WHAT ... THE ... FUCK ... just happened up there?

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I was stress testing the Flayrah threading.

You literally can't respond to it now, so looks like the algorithm gave him the last word!

But in a word "speedbump"

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Update the headline:

DenFur shatters first year con record at over 2,000 attendees. Also, our comment section.

(But really, I mean, I was talking about how an article about attendance numbers gaves our first comment fight in months.)

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On the bright side, Mike did a really good job of advertising his petition he plugged, because I'm officially tired of politics on furry websites now.

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Maybe I want my own fight?

Also I'm over that conversation. I would've addressed some of it in my Eurofurence con report but since I have food poisoning I have done nothing productive today.

Which is extra sad because yesterday I was on fire! Read 75% of a novella I need to review, made 350 words of summary notes for review, another 300 words of convention report, did shopping, played a couple games of CS:GO, etc.

"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
~John Stuart Mill~

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All you ever do on this platform is boast about yourself. Jesus!

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I'm wondering if the frequency of cons in the North Americas is having an impact on our ability to contribute to the charities. Someone nerdy could go through the history of cons and analyze the per capita donation rates and compare it with grographical density of conventions.

But apparently some person who is red and a kangaroo want to debate silly bands with people upset about those silly bands all day instead apparently.

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Conventions vary with respect to charitable giving per person due to culture, expense of location, differing goals, etc. A few years back I worked out which ones did "better" per head, at least from 2010-2012 (here's the data).

EF averaged $10.82/head - not as good as this year (remember the financial crisis?), but back then it led cons above 1000 attendees. UK (e.g. ConFuzzled, ScotiaCon) and Commonwealth cons tended to do pretty well. Among larger cons, MFF stood out - it's historically benefited from relatively low running costs, but is also established with charitable goals, and exceeded projections (leading to surplus funds). Further Confusion is also run by a charity, but hasn't grown at the same rate and is in an expensive location. Anthrocon was also low per-head; but then, it's a private club, not a charity - its goal is a low cost of attendance.

Of course, it's been a few years since then and I wouldn't be surprised if things have changed, e.g. AC raised ~$5/person in 2017 and in 2018, which is ~50% of MFF's 2017 figure rather than the ~40% it was back in 2010-2012. But many of the factors will remain the same.

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Holy shit, when did Mike Retriever go full-on racist? Or maybe he always was and I didn't know? Dude has said the n word more times in this thread alone than a whole gathering of klan members. I mean, yea context matters to an extent, but quantity does too. Also, the fact that he admits to gleefully participating in racist discussions in altfurry chats really sets the scene. His example is as good as any to explain why they should not be allowed in the furry community.

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If you read this comment:
You'll know exactly when and why I joined the "Furry Raiders" Telegram group. You can establish there a cause-effect relationship.

If you read this comment:
You'll know why, as expressed by world-revered leftist intellectual Noam Chomsky, repression of the word 'nigger' or right-wing views is counter-productive.

If you think about both events, you will see how liberal / leftist propaganda is actually having the opposite effect of what liberals / leftists want.

May I remind you too that I didn't introduce the topic on the 'nigger' word. Had they chosen a different word they dislike we'd have gone with a different one. Following the similar logic, saying 'faggot' would make me a homophobe. But I am homosexual. I'm a faggot.

If you read the whole topic, maybe you will learn contrary views to your own that are valuable, contextualized.

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They aren't going to change their beliefs simply because to get you to stop making your own decisions.

You should respect your own agency as a human being then to hold it hostage in hopes that Deo and Patch will change their political beliefs to negotiate for your release from altfurry.

If they're "wrong" and you take action based on their actions, then your actions are merely a reactionary derivation of "wrong".

You're no better and just as political as those you oppose, thusly your group will fail in excercising political partianism from the fandom.

And your actions will also have the opposite effect of what you want. Thus the involuntary symbiosis comtinues.

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I am better, because I don't publish partisan rubbish articles on a furry journalistic feed, nor distribute badges with my ideology at furry conventions.

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Saying that Patch forced you to become a racist is stupid. You made that decision, not him. You have free will. He is not your puppet master, and if you really think asserting his mastery over your heart and mind will make you seem innocent, you are even more of a fool as that just makes you look spineless.

Very few people follow or accept Noam Chomsky's ideas as any kind of truth. Thus, his commentary on the useage of that word is irrelevant. We, the rest of the furry community are your judge and jury, not him.

I think you feel that using the word somehow makes you brave, yet at the same time you have freely admitted that you would be frightened to use it in public, because your reputation and relationships would be destroyed. So instead, you use it on the internet where you think you are anonymous. However, all of the leaders of the altfurry movement thought that they were anonymous too, yet every last one of them has their real name, face and location posted on kiwifarms.

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No one said anyone here is forcing others to make decisions. Please read what I say, and respond to what I say, if that's what you're trying to do. I said you can establish a cause-effect relationship. Which you can. You can establish a cause-effect relationship.

Of course, you're free to disagree with liberal / leftist intellectuals who know more about international politics than Dogpatch or yourself. By addressing his arguments, or as an act of willful dismissal.

I wouldn't be afraid to use 'nigger' in public. I would use the word in a proper context, such as a discussion on the word (like the one we're having), a karaoke of a Kanye West song, or with friends at a place making outrageous jokes. I would not use it at a furry convention, in a casual conversation at the bus, when addressing another person I don't know, or writing a journalistic article. This is what mature adults do. They change their registry or manners according to the setting or context they're in. Neither should you talk about 'murrsuits' in your work-place, a word that you'd agree is perfectly acceptable in a furry journalistic article.

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And Dylan Roof claimed that he killed 9 innocent black people in a church because they "caused him" to do it by their existence as people in the U.S. You are no better than him.

And you are correct in one thing, I am free to disregard Mr. Chomsky's analysis because his ideas in that area are just as foolish as yours, which is why a minuscule number of people have accepted his analysis.

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I think shunning / dismissal / repression of right-wing ideology is partially responsible for Trump's election. Statistics showed he was going to lose, but he won. Maybe those people they asked at the polls were not truthfully asserting in public they would support democrats. I wouldn't have data on that because I haven't looked further into it. In any case Trump's election would suggest there are more right-leaners than left-leaners in the general population. By accepting 'hegemonic' liberalism / leftism you are alienating a good chunk of the furry population, which will continue to exist whether there's an effort to silence it or not.

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No, this is a faulty analysis as well. Trump received the same amount of the vote that Romney and McCain did. The reason he won is that the surplus of people who voted for Obama did not vote for Hillary. There are numerous explanations for why that occurred. Many of them did not vote or voted third party. There was no surge of voters to Trump, he received the normal Republican vote, similar to every GOP candidate before him.

And a good chunk of the furry population is not being alienated. The fandom is continuing to grow by leaps and bounds. The only people who are claiming that they will no longer participate are the racists and bigots, and we are all very happy to hear that they want to leave.

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That's interesting data, thank you. You'd agree the general population then thought Hillary was a worse candidate than Trump? I thought they were both pretty cringeworthy in their campaigns, though Hillary gave me more shivers of disgust.

Oh no, no no, I don't see anyone in the "Furry Raiders" group saying they're leaving the fandom or 'not participating'. They say they're still taking part in it despite Dogpatch's rubbish journalism or "Nazi Furs Fuck Off" badges. They're not leaving. That's my argument. They will not leave. They can become alienated by others, but they'll continue to exist and talk and be active. More proof that this propraganda is all a non-productive fad.

Despite the "Nazi Furs Fuck Off" badges at Eurofurence, I've been told most people by a large margin didn't wear them, and some mocked them with variations such as "I Fuck Furs". Which is pretty funny. And civil.

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The surplus of voters who voted for Obama but did not vote for Hillary decided for various reasons not to vote for her. Some didn't like her, some were exhausted by the insanity of the campaign, some were angry Bernie voters who had been convinced that there was no way for Trump to win so they didn't vote for her. You could find hundreds of reasons why she didn't get that vote. They can probably all be traced to her not being as inspirational of a candidate as Obama was.

And alt furries state on an almost daily basis that they are fed up with the fandom, that it is dying, and that they don't want to be part of it anymore. We will continue to ostracize them with the goal of getting them all to move along to bother some other fandom.

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I'd think I'd hear about that if that was the case. I'm in the Telegram group you call "alt furries".

You're just doing a fad that will go away like burned furs did.

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Time will resolve all these issues, but if the group you are indicating is a fad, then your group is merely a derivative of said fad and would fade with it.

Which is why Len hopes it is no fad and will work to escalate the hyper-partisianism you dislike. Your hated of SJWs is what sustains your group, so he'll invent them and as long as someone complains about anything you'll call them a SJW.

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You seem to be more obsessed about Len than I am. If he opens up a furry journalism site about his political ideology, I'll comfront him.

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He already made a pundit group based on spreading his political word. It's called altfurry, apparently.

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Len's sister told me he got called closet simba the lion queen by bullies in school.

Imagine having *this* as your "racism origin story", for why you consider yourself separate and better than others and carry genetic based grudges.

Take a good look mike. This is the hobbyist hitler who made your little cult and your redpilled brain genius condition.

I like how he hyphenated back-pack and high-school. It's like brain-less. Or anti-fa, the boogeymen who apparently make him mad about his dick.

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Still better than Infinate's backstory from Sonic forces.

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You speak with Len / about Len more than I do. Maybe his political ideology will rub on you harder.

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Nazis don't rub on anyone when they're getting told to fuck off, Mike. It's funny for how slippery a liar you are, you got rubbed on harder than a balloon sticking to a wool sweater by static. You like wool? Baaaaah. Chickenshit conformist.

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All this will be more amusing with a historical perspective in a couple of years, when that fad is done and finished.

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Dude I'm high as fuck right now (dont you wish you were in california?) and the funniest thing to me is how you think dunking your head in a racist toilet and getting swirlies for it somehow grants you foresight and vision. More like foreskin stuck in your vision. It's the bofa theory of history.

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Yeah he didn't advertise it in furry news magazines. Remember who did that? It was Dogpatch Press.

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Green jealousy ripens and in time it withers, mike. And that's how you ended up in the sewer where you are, getting owned by the person you keep ineffectually flailing about.

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You know you're talking with someone with common sense when they speak about themselves in the third person.

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I don't need common sense, in fact smoke me a fat doobie first, and I can sit here all day speaking about you heiling your hand into a cheesegrater of stupidity, and you can't land a single comeback.

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Look at this clown saying his racist chat is funny, and I'm clowning his ass up and down this comment section. Where's your *shitpost* god power now, puppydoobag?

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He said the T word! Not thank you!

Now he wants to talk American politics... Suuuure.

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We are reading what you are saying. Below is the link in which you indicated that Patch's work influenced you to join altfurry:

You know you CAN write politically neutral news stories without joining political groups and trying to mold yourself into antihesis of everything the person you disagree with is, right?

Like a person can be a leftist and disagree with Noam? He is not their God. In fact as a pretty open atheist I would hope Noam would find distaste in you trying to mold his words into a form of gospel.

In addition, I somehow doubt you are remembering his quote accurately and are twisting it to your side's benefit which you did above with his criticism of antifa as well.

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Again, I don't REALLY care about politics. Not in a furry context. If you read me for the 10th time you'll know why I remain in that group.

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No, you care a real awful lot about politics in furry, dude. This thread, and all the actions you've taken that you've attributed to caring about politics in furry, and the quotes you've confirmed are from you where you discuss politics in a furry chat, all show that to be true. And that's true for most of the people claiming as much recently: they add just as much politics and political discussion to their environment, but they feel slighted so they say that it's not their fault, there's practically a gun to their head. I was in (what is probably now a previous iteration of) the Furry Raiders Telegram chat, and fuck, they couldn't even keep a coherent administrative team, because their own internal politics were spawning offshoots and interventions and in-chat mod meltdowns and resignations on a daily basis.

It's blatantly clear that politics in furry is not really the problem, feeling unwelcome for your own preferred form of political discussion is the problem. Maybe your preferred form is mocking Mexicans and dismissing gay children for a laugh, but pretending that is apolitical is delusional.

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You've been a contributor to Encyclopedia Dramatica, so you would know how shitposting works. I don't continue to be there for the political views. I continue to be there because I can laught at jokes at the expense of anything. I will laugh at my own & everyone's homosexuality if it means I can get to laugh instead of limit my speech to PC requests.

You can laugh at other more mild things anywhere else, but triggering individuals prevent offensive jokes from being generally shared. That's not a bad thing, people have different tastes. Not using an outlet to deviant crass humor, that yes is a bad thing.

If you can offer a better alternative, I'll take it. Haven't seen a better Telegram group in that regard yet.

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Yeah, I did used to do that, and you know what? That was inarguably the fucking stupidest thing I've ever done.

Thank God I got better.

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To each their own.

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And you know, since I do know how shitposting works - you said so yourself - when I was laughing at or making the kind of "shitposts" that you've been quoted saying, I was never laughing at the joke itself, no matter how much I would have argued against it then, there was never a point where those jokes were just so funny to me that I needed the outlet to laugh at them. What I really thought was funny, what entertained me about it, was the knowledge that it would upset or even hurt people, that it was taboo and I felt really contrarian and intelligent to the point I was superior, because I knew not to take things seriously (except for the things I did take seriously, of course, those were the only real issues).

That's a really good point you made, Mike. I've been you.

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What I really thought was funny, what entertained me about it, was the knowledge that it would upset or even hurt people, that it was taboo

Maybe that realization would allow you to see, in a way, a reason why PC propaganda is doomed to fail in a hobbyist context. The widest amount of furries don't go to furmeets or talk to each other to speak about current state of events in the country, politics, or agreeing or disagreeing with policies. They just join to entertain themselves. The fact that Dogpatch Press & company are sperging out about certain words isn't helping them.

Oh by the way man, I'm totally against this kind of humor in public serious speeches, or work committees, or customer service, etc. etc. etc. I think that's common sense. Civility.

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If you really want an alternative outlet for your apparently-needed abnormal, antisocial behavior, some people find therapy beneficial.

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Listening to Ricky Gervais or Bill Burr also works, but there's only so much stand-up comedy they've done, it's a limited resource.

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Don't tell crossie, but I think standup sucks.

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You know I havent said jack squat about or to crossie in I don't know how long because he's my 3rd least favorite poster here (actually there's only 3 unfavorites, who gives a shit anyways), after there was that outburst of displaced grudges against a con he hadn't gone to for 11 years and a movie he refused to watch. The ungood kind of bias ("bias" is a thought terminating cliche, "objective fan" is an oxymoron, just try to keep rational ones.) But you know he's not a nazi. So automatically better taste than any of them anywhere. There are no cool or funny nazis, just sad loser ones.

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>:| I'm going to swat you with a newspaper

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Line up everyone, I might like it! Except no fascists.

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Well there's an interesting argument.

Not EVERYONE I was an asshole to became a facist.

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Lol, saying to watch an unwatched movie someone is erroneously bashing isnt assholism. Having insanely overwrought reactivity to that however...

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You and I both know it was the circumstances around the oklacon thing that approached that territory, not the movie

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You and I both know that's not true, because you repeated a twisted story without bothering to check in a 2016 video, so I sent you a confidential, extensively linked and quoted, with timeline, correction. Still archived in my email from Aug 8 2016.

This story about "the Oklacon thing" is based on a grudge I have nothing to do with. I didn't discuss Oklacon 6 months later when it was made an issue by the source *because the source was repeating the same mistake of bashing a movie and/or event they didn't watch or attend, and I questioned bashing a movie without watching it.*

The grudge from 6 months earlier was brought up by the source of the grudge, in this sequence:

A) Source (in public comments on a public story): "I have a grudge about the event in the story I wrote, even though I don't attend" - "it makes me aggressive and angry"

B) Me (and many others including attendees:) "Please disclose in the story if you're bashing an event based on a grudge, it's not fair to people who attend, they did nothing wrong."

C) "How dare you harass me by mentioning this grudge".

D) Sonious (listening to source 6 months later): "Patch is harassing the source".

Not fair dude. Everyone has biases good or bad, A) can be fixed, B) isn't assholism, C) is where it goes off the rails, and D) is just not true.

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So what is the ranking? Asking for a friend.

"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
~John Stuart Mill~

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Don't tell crossie, but I think standup sucks.


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Also, oooh, bringing me up randomly was apparently not a good idea.

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Wow Equivamp, I didn't think Mike would actually acknowledge that your analysis was spot on. Lol. He's like, "Yea, I am what you used to be, and I'm just waiting to grow up but in the meantime I'll keep hurting people because it's fun."

No Mike, people don't go to furry conventions and meet ups to entertain themselves at the expense of others. They go to make friends, enjoy the company of others, and celebrate furry creative works. It is not a neo nazi meet up, and we will never allow that to be the case.

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They're not hurting anyone if you don't insist on listening to it. The opposite of what Dogpatch & Co. are doing.

And why do you keep misrepresenting what I write?
"They just join to entertain themselves." That's what I said.
"They just join to entertain themselves."
NOT "to entertain themselves at the expense of others."

Please, again, respond to what I say, not to what you imagine.

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We listen because we want to know who they are. That way we can keep them out of our presence and report their activities to their parents, significant others, and employers.

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Hahahaha! You're both admitting illegal activity of harassment, and, doing something that doesn't help your political views!

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Imagine that, griping about supposed knowledge of journalism, but also whining about "illegal harassment" (AKA talking to people, not illegal at all) with no clue about the actual standards in any country.

Of course if you'd pointed out the irony of Cody talking about your employers and significant others (there aren't any for most of you) you might have a tad bit more dignity here.

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Dogpatch, your journalism is more yellow than The Sun. In any sense of the word. Whoenever reads newspapers would come to that same conclusion.

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I know you're all wet and pissy about getting owned so hard in here, and in your own country by socialists, but try to get some therapy mike and don't project at others, lil' yellowbelly nazipup.

Also, no kinkshaming piss-play, it's just that if you like keeping things in their proper place (LOL DO THE FOLSOM JOKE) then you should probably fuck off back to your chat-toilet for that, you leaky sack of diapers.

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Your gobbledygook isn't that great right now. I rate it D-

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Rating my D is never going to happen for you outside of videos, you dented can of tuna.

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No one here wants to rate you D Patch.

Put it away ;p

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What about my D? You wanted a story?

So I'm in Costa Rica and end up in the rainforest, and like an astute American I wore skinny hipster jeans on the hot beach and got swampy balls. My shorts go on for the forest and I go commando for chilling with tapirs and howler monkeys. My guide shows me how to lick termites off a tree (it tastes like sesame seeds imbued with pine-sol, stir them up with batter for a protein pancake.) Great hike.

I get back and go a whole night and day with nothing wrong, go to bed, wake up for a leak. Now something is wrong.

You know when you're a guy and your pee stream does the splits, so you gyrate into awkward angles to stop the misfiring until the streams come together. Well it's not working. I should be holding a precision instrument, like a WaterPik for your teeth, but instead it's soaking the floor like a rotating lawn sprinkler and it won't stop.

I inspect the urinary predicament and what the hell, is that a particularly tenacious lint particle glued to the nozzle? Jesus christ, there's a tick on the tip. It probably hopped off a tapir's taint and made a beeline for my tender juicy bits, because I wore shorts in the wrong part of the hike like a dumb ass. So I yell to my partner "AhHhHh I need tweezers ThEreS A TiCk On mY DiCk!"

(Luckily there's no Lyme in Costa Rica and it was too small to feel anything, I forgot about it right away and had a great vacation.)

When mike and his altfur pals try to act like racist stupidity belongs anywhere, that isn't a contribution, that's a blockage. They divert waste from where it belongs and get it where it doesn't. They're not an outlet for something useful, they're a wretched intrusion. Fixing the mess isn't messing with their "rights" to cause a nuisance, it's not "hate" or "politics", it's taking care of business. They aren't victims, they're parasites.

Ticks don't belong on a healthy dick and nazis don't belong in a healthy fandom. When you tweeze hate into the toilet, that's not "dividing the fandom", they just divided the direction the hate needs to go (out and down the drain). Flush it.

You know how they don't belong here? They have no good stories or art. It's all ripped off memes. If this is a fandom built for creativity, racist cliches are the most uncreative bullshit you can possibly do. They don't even have interesting personalities, they're dull as dirt. For a group that pretends they can use profanity for comedy better than those PC SJW's, they sure do suck at it. Hear me Mike? Your racist jokes are shit and you have nothing funny or interesting to say. Ditch the losers if you think you genuinely have anything useful to contribute.

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what in the fuck?

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Denfur was cool, right

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This is how we do things here. See a Nazi, report them to family/friends and employers. See a KKK member, report them to family/friends and employers. They get fired and ostracized. Other people learn about a dangerous individual. Everyone wins.

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Yeah, except your concept of what constitutes nazis is wider than the orifice of a Goatse photograph. That too.

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The place your head is at right now isn't nearly ever going to be that famous, you crusty dingleberry.

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Are you calling me a fruit?

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Remember when you tried dictionary lawyering at me and failed?

1. a foolish or inept person.
2. a particle of fecal matter attached to the anal hair of an animal.

Brush up on your english, master of yellow and brown things.

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So you did miss the double entendre there. Augh what a missed opportunity for your brushing rhetorical skills.

Dingleberry can mean cranberry (fruit) (Merrian-Webster), and fruit is, well, you know. A faggot. Which we both are. Who knows what nouns trigger / don't trigger these days. 'Vagina' is now the triggering one for some trans.

Soon we'll have a non-PC dictionary of 'wrong' words free-speech advocates can use and enjoy in their own subset of society. They'll have one more book they can read without remorse, so they'll be more cultured. And you'll continue to believe you're a more skilled writer.

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We've all been Mikes somehow, at some point. And you know, it feels so refreshing to get over it. Actually I'm a little queasy about making him lose the "debate me" game this way. It's *sad* and he needs *help* but of course won't take any, that's not what those places or for, and of course nobody can Daryl Davis them until they choose to undo what they did in the first place, no matter who or what else is going on outside their walled-in minds.

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You offered the better solutions to yourself. EncyclopediaDramatica or that Kiwi site. Because unlike altfurry, they don't take themselves too seriously.

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I know what I read, and I have faith most people who are literate read the same.

Maybe when this 'fad' is over, you'll come back and read the same.

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Now check this out Cody, it's not my fault any more. (The "look what you made me do" manipulator game).

He's redpilled, now it's the fault of SJW gender communists and gayness "fad" ruining the natural order of biological essentialism.

Quoting Mike's posts about an hour ago to the 300-some accounts of the nazifur chat:

Blumiere: we wuz victims n sheeit


S'risr: Why does a children's show need to be gender balanced?

Mike: I thought children didn't have a gender, it was all a social construct?
The current marketing strategy that works is social justicing.
Regardless of the end product, if you sell it as social justicing, people care.
Long term, it'll probably be business suicide, but short term, you get attention, that's good.
SJWing permeates every media outlet, it's the current fad
It'll be so for a while

S'risr: I'm talking bigger picture. This sjw is destroying the culture of the world. Just *rubs her temples* frustrating
I worry for when my daughter starts school

Mike: How old is she?

S'risr: 3

Mike: Nah she's too young
It'll be gone before she can link rational thoughts
You think SJW will be like it is now in 4 years?

Blum: Gender neutral stuff is great goy. Don't appeal to the natural proclivities of men and women. Don't let them think their thoughts and feelings are *normal*. Give in to the gender Communism. An inability to reproduce later in life is a small price to pay for "equality".

S'risr: Or coming out as gay. Then getting bullied to death

Mike: A 3 to 7-year-old kid makes 0 life-changing decisions
Hahaha at age 7?
If she says she's gay at age 7, she'll grow out of it
I think she'll forget the whole subject in a week at most

S'risr: I likely be like whatever. Granted I hope when she is 16 or so she comes out as a lesbian. Then I dont have to worry about a teen pregnancy lol

Mike: She might use it as an excuse so you don't keep bugging her about birth control

Reminder, this is a 30-year-old pharmacist assistant making "shitposts" about birth control for teens. How sinister can you get?
Same week a 9 year old boy killed himself from bullying after coming out as gay.

Mike's brainwashed logical gymnastics will neither let him take responsibility for things he's saying causing harm to others (it's just a "shitpost", or accept that this boy was caused harm (it was a "fad"). (And those evil SJW's who caused Gamergate want to hold video games responsible for violence and that's bad too.)

But of course it's someone else's fault that he was caused to join nazis. THEY did it to him. So conveniently.

There we go again, a look inside the redpilled brain, which is so slippery that nothing can be true or a lie, it just depends on what ideological bullshit they want to get away with while blaming it on someone else.

They call this talking out of both sides of your mouth. Having it both ways. Being a slimy, disingenuous liar with two faces.

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I already argued this is no place for crass jokes. You're like an old offended lady posting a zoomed photo of two neighbours doing naughty BDSM in their bedroom, on the local TV news. Hey, just like tabloids!

I'd say you don't distinguish proper settings or context for each behavior.

That's why you want to ban all naughty behavior everywhere! That's the reason!

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You're full of shit, Mike

LOL, nobody who knows me or has ever read anything I say thinks I want to ban naughty behavior anywhere. You're an even bigger tool than I take you for, and that's quite hard to beat, if you think anyone is going to buy that :D

What I don't like, like a sane person and the furry fandom, is lying haters. I don't hate you, I'm contemptuous of you, you moldy banana.

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Sympathizers of your journalistic practices continuously try to disrupt these kinds of chat groups. I can't be bothered to search if you literally condone that word-for-word, but you're pretty adamant on removing those kinds of conversations from the furry fandom, which is never going to happen.

In the Furry Raiders Telegram group, I also posted:

They aren't familiar with how the Internet works. Not even the biggest economic powerhouse with the largest army has been able to close down torrent sites.

If you attempt to disrupt or close a Telegram group, a different one will emerge. Non-PC discussion existed before any of them connected to the Internet. Only delusion would make them think they can make groups of non-PC discussions disappear, furry or otherwise.

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Yes, you all can have your racist chat groups. That is where the rest of us want you to be at. We will just do what we need to do to remove that from our conventions and meetups.

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People will continue to speak about anything they like in a civil manner, at furry conventions and meet-ups, with similarly-minded individuals. I'm sorry you think activism is going to change that.

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You're not Daryl Davis, or running a Torrent site, Mike. Don't flatter yourself. You wouldn't try if you had an iota of self awareness.

You're slumming it in a little toilet chat with a sad handful of losers so lame, that not even furries (the MOST accepting fandom that lets anybody and everybody in) want to smell you near them, you wet sack of pencil shavings and coffee grounds.

Yawn, you've been owned so many times by now, you're like a rental bowling shoe with the sole worn through.

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I don't claim to be Daryl Davis. I claim to be having a great time laughing my ass off there, and from you now continuing to behave like a tabloid. In a neutral place where your ideology doesn't have the upper hand. For that reason alone I condone the existence of that group. It makes me laugh.

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You're full of shit, mike.

Shit is only funny when someone else watches it do things to you, like you slip and fall in a puddle of it, but they don't have to smell it.

You and your pals slip in it. The rest of us get shocked for a second and then laugh at you corncobbing.

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Nopes, 'funny' is not universally agreed upon. But you do have your own undertanding of what 'funny' is, that is different to mine.

If you look at humor studies, you'll find not even scientists can precisely classify all humor or jokes.

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Funny is the clownshoes you wear while I'm fucking you with all these owns, son.

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You won't be laughing Mike when your relationships are all destroyed by joining up with racists and bigots. You will end up like everyone else who has fallen into that trap, either wearing a hood or looking back in the future at the terrible mistakes you have made.

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This is the #1 reason they leave (or "cuck out", in their parlance.)

They manage to get lucky enough that some sane family member shames them, or an actual significant other finds out what they're doing and it puts the relationship in jeopardy.

The boldness of the wet young recruit goes sour real quick. Til then, all the superficial braggadocio is really saying "so lonely".

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Luckily no one gives a shit about any of that rubbish here in Spain. We already had a civil war with left-right divisions that broke us to the ground, so we're not fond of left-right polarization.

In fact in the last years we've managed to have a pretty plural parliament, with 4 main different political parties that can't override each other's mandates without consensus.

I'm not saying we're the best country, but we're better at politics than the US.

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Pedro Sanchez, leader of the Socialist Party (PSOE) became prime minister of Spain in June.


Aw, you got a temper when Tempe's article posted. It's not that at all, lil' nazipup. You're jealous and bitter about your own country. :)

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HAHA OH my god, they're trying to mock the ostracization of racists in their chat right now, like as if it happens to the libs more. Branding yourself with the nazi brush to own the libs.

They're posting to screenshot it.

Guys, ask your organizer Casey about what his sister whispers to me.

Honk honk, clownshoes. 1-star this.

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"No one cares about this in Spain"

States the Spaniard who has spent two days caring about it.

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The sad thing is, he thinks he's having fun now but sooner or later someone is going to Doxx him, as all of the alt-furry and furry raiders eventually get doxxed, and then all of the logs of him using the N word and saying horribly racist things will be sent to his employer and he will be fired. Then he'll cry and wonder how it all came to this.

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Oh no! Someone says mean things on the internet! Please refer to them that the offended party is a fellow hobbyist who likes to dress in furry costumes and go to conventions with displayed porn.

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You could be star of a movie called PissBeast 3: The Boogering and it wouldn't be nearly as shameful as being a racist.

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It's why all of the altfurs number one fear is being doxxed. That's why they try to be all secretive and hide everything about themselves, because they know that all the stuff they're doing will screw over their real life. They are all terrified of it. It's also funny that usually the doxxing comes from within them. You think they're your pals, but sooner or later one of them will dislike you for some minor reason and they will leak your info just to ruin you. The fact that you willingly give them that power over you makes you even more sad.

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You're the person here who so far has been most apologetical about doxing. You should reevaluate your ideas.

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I'm happy to see it happen to racists. It's the best form of punishment and creates the biggest disincentive for their evil activities.

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Hence you're as incivil as the people you demonize.

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You can say that if you'd like, but you know it will happen sooner or later, and when it does we will all be shaking our heads talking about how pathetic Mike Retriever's situation is. And you know just as we know it will be one of your "brothers" who doxxes you. You'll say something that pisses one of them off, and he will gleefully stab you in the back. As the scorpion says, "it is their nature."

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Then when doxing apologists like yourself go after furries who like cub porn, you'll be their 'victim'.

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Ride that slippery slope to Jonestown and suck down a frosty pitcher of koolaid, you germ on a tick on a donkey nutsack.

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The thing is, I surround myself only with people who are friendly and kind hearted. You surround yourself with people who you have admitted take pleasure in causing pain and suffering to others. That's why they will turn on you.

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mike's FA gallery has old comments from me sending hugs and furry stuff, but fascist supporters get Hug Embargo >:(

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I will continue to offer you or receive hugs from you nevertheless. I don't stop being friends of people because of their personal views being opposed to mine, or because they do shit I consider stupid / in poor taste. Unless they reject friendship themselves.

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Even your phone navigation app tells nazis to go to hell

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Here's a fact. When you told me to look up Patch's profile on Quiwi... Or whatever that site is called... It is the first time I've heard of it.

Lots of doxxing there.

If you are against doxxing morally, why did you suggest to me a site for reference that has no morals against doing it?

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I said the profile is funny. The doxing part isn't the funny part.

The site is for milking lulzcows, it's based on that premise. I think you can do that just as well without doxing, but they have their own policy.

Have you seen the video? Amusing.

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I have no interest in seeing a fursuiters jacked thanks. I have heard of it's contents.

I did learn the Deo is from Idaho, which given that state has the highest per capita in white supremacists it makes sense why she behaves the way she in the fandom at large given the environment.

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Dude your talking points are weaker than wet toilet paper.

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He's not even apologetical you germ, that's literally what happens from your own pals in the little troll-toilet you picked for a few weeks of hangout, until you realize it's the dumbest thing you ever did.

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We're more famous than you hombre. Not because of our actions, but because you have done everything you can to promote the group along with our names.

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Fame's overrated.

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You know you can join in the conversation there at any time, dissenting? Instead of sperg out. I invite you to join and have a discussion there, share your POV.

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Mike, nobody wants to waste oxygen rehashing dead dogma with you or your dissembling racist pals, any more than they want to reuse a wadded up kleenex they found on a bus station floor.

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Your activity in this webpage would indicate otherwise.

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No dead dogma "debate" with you here, Mike. Just pointing at you shitting your pants.

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I must now recognize your ability to be fun at discussing is increasing. You've managed to say bad things to me that are civil, and not partisan. Like the expression "moldy banana". And "you're shitting your pants".

I approve of those.

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Yet, here you are; screencapping our telegram chat, writing hitpieces about the group's users, and currently dissembling a "racist pal" on here. That's a lot of oxygen that you're using.

Jokes aside, do you think to yourself that you have any self-awareness at all? Oh wait, I forgot. You don't think. That's why you're dumb enough to repeatedly contradict yourself and believe that tasteless racial slurs/jokes in a telegram chat are a slippery slope to genocide. That's why we had a holocaust in the US after Bugs Bunny cartoons and the Fritz the Cat film were released in theater, right?

Come on dude. You can just simply say that you find our speech tasteless, but to lie about it being threatening is so laughable. You're doing us a favor if you ostracize us because no one wants to be surrounded by blogger with room temperature IQ.

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Len, did you really get called "simba the closet queen" in school?

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Come on man, is that the extent of your dialectical prowess?

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No. I can't abide this. This is a place where Flayrah members get to have stupid arguments for days on end. Not AltFurry and exAltFurry. You gotta draw the line in the sand somewhere

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So the rocky mountain fur con got taken over by the nazis and everybody went there, but still everyone talks crap about Furry Times, really somebody should be punched for this

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What? No one is talking Furry Times.

"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
~John Stuart Mill~

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Uh... I'm pretty sure the only person still talking about your blog here is you. It hasn't come up for an entire year, ever since you got banned from newsbytes to prevent said blog being mentioned there (which only you ever did, and you were threatening to sue us for).

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Holy shit, this thread!



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Well, you know Dogpatch can't avoid throwing out his "Lightning bolt! Lightning bolt! Lightning bolt!" whenever there's anything remotely related to nazi gas-chamber-supporting furs. And so he did.

"These nazi demons, they keep ruining our LARPing experience! Lightning bolt! Lightning bolt!"
It does get annoying after a while. And it looks retarded.

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You started it.

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Nope, he did. In April 2017, first article about nazis. Followed by over 20 articles talking about nazis (and I'm not increasing that number because I stopped counting). That's on average more than one article on nazis every month. Plus god knows how many messages on social media about nazis, both his own and retweets.

He continues his ramblings about nazis here with comment #6, and that's when I respond. After a year and a half of fucking going on and on and on about nazis. He's got a nazi obsession that he can't keep within the confines of his tabloid website. He's gonna fanedit the Disney movie to Nazitopia and send us a copy for review.

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Talking your way in circles around this is really spiraling down the drain.

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That article that I wrote awhile back that you said "TL;DR" had a count-up of these articles:

In the section titled: "The importance of proportional media coverage"

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The article is too long to my liking if it amounts to slapping Dogpatch on the back of the neck for doing shitty journalism. Thank God for contributors to Flayrah, including yourself, because otherwise that's all we would get. A neverending stream of "Beware nazis." "Look at how progressive I am because I'm a model in an erotic photoshoot in the age of Trump." "I'm a socialist as is the furry fandom."

My closing statement in your article was:
"If Sonious' long-winged argument here is that calling them "Nazis" is a bad idea, then I agree on all serious fronts: metaphorically, literally, rhetorically, politically, morally, and aesthetically."

I probably would have paid more attention to the article if I hadn't been sick of nazis being the dead horse that's constantly being beaten in the furry media. We might as well put a square moustache on our faces and hail glory to the supremacy of the German nation.

Dogpatch Press should be renamed to Dogpatch Tabloid. He can simply compare a reputable newspaper to a tabloid, and see what his articles are most similar to. No further discussions needed. Read one. Read the other. Compare them to his work.

He's taken it semi-professional, getting paid on Patreon, and he has yet to reach the level of journalistic integrity behind most if not all the contributions here. And he doesn't have enough with his site. He pollutes every website he goes to with his personal ideological banter, praising a chosen side and demonizing another.

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So ... Sonious' article is TL:DR, but you'll keep an obsessive track record of every Dogpatch article on a topic since April?

Well, anyway, now we know why you don't like Nazis being called out for their shit.


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Obsessive record? I just looked for keywords with the search function and counted the results / looked at the date.

Yeah that's what it comes down to in this day and age. Everyone's a nazi.

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Works as well as "another generic color dog avatar outed as a piece of shit"

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This thread would probably be about half as long if Mike didn't come and spam the N word like a couple dozen times and tell us all how he thinks it's super cool to make racist commentary about minorities as long as (1) they don't hear you, or (2) you are doing it in Spain.

Then he wonders why people are disliking him...

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To be fair, I had to spend about an hour to two doing a tally of the stories on Dog Patch to acquire the statistics I had used for the article.

But Patch can write about what he wants to write about and I'm not going to backseat write for him, especially since I do have my own site I could use to write such things how I'd like to by example.

I know some people don't have that option, so they can complain about it if they wish. But some people DO have that option.

It doesn't draw the short term attention sure, and maybe that can be frustrating, but sticking to your guns doesn't mean jumping the shark based on the behaviors you find objectionable.

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Yes, but you end up writing articles with your tracking of Dogpatch articles.

Mike ends up becoming a Nazi.

There's a difference.

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Sonious has a site to write at and so does Dogpatch. Mike has one but it's a little less read than that obscure little publication, The Sun. He's no more censored than any other asshole with an opinion, but turned into a nazi... why? Jealousy over furry clout is the world's most petty problem...

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